Ante up! A conversation with Bianca Laureano - Part 2

In this episode Alex Iantaffi interviews award-winning educator, curriculum writer and sexologist Bianca I Laureano. In fact, they had so much fun that their conversation is split between two episodes, so make sure to listen to both parts. Bianca is a founding member of the Women of Color Sexual Health Network (WOCSHN) and The LatiNegrxs Project. Her most recent project is ANTE UP! a virtual freedom school for justice workers offering professional development and certification we need for doing the work during these challenging times. Bianca earned her BA in Individual Studies with a focus on Latina Sexualities in 2000 from the University of Maryland, College Park. She earned a Masters of Arts from NYU in Human Sexuality Education in 2002 and a second Masters of Arts from the University of Maryland in Women’s Studies with a focus on sexualities, race, and racialization in 2006.  While at UM she was a CrISP Scholar at the Consortium on Race, Gender, and Ethnicity and helped create the Intersectional Research Database. She has written several curricula that focus on communities of color: What’s the REAL DEAL about Love and Solidarity? (2015) and Communication MixTape: Speak On It Vol 1. (2017) and wrote the sexual and reproductive justice discussion guide for the NYC Department of Health and Mental Hygiene published in 2018. Bianca has been on the board of CLAGS, the LGBTQ Center at CUNY, and The Black Girl Project; and is currently on the SisterSong board. She currently resides in Oakland, CA with her core partner G and is an AASECT certified sexuality educator and supervisor. Find out more about Bianca at her website BiancaLaureano.com and about ANTE UP! at www.AnteUpPD.com  You can also follow Bianca on Facebook. Bianca's call to action is to support the wonderful Patty Berne's GoFundMe!

Transcript

Musical Intro: 0:01

There's a whole lotta things I want to tell you

Narrator: 0:04

Everyone has a relationship with gender. What's about. Adventures, dangerous, and queer. Some you could guess your story? Hello, and welcome to Gender Stories with your and some I've only hinted at, so please lend me your ear. host, Dr. Alex Iantaffi.

Alex Iantaffi: 0:36

Do you share more about ANTE UP! I feel like I could have this conversation forever. Love your time but was like telling me more about ANTE UP!

Bianca Laureano: 0:42

Yeah, absolutely. So when I stepped down from WOCSHN, I created ANTE UP!, which is a popular like poker saying when people put all their chips in, um, it's this approach are the language of any up that I really appreciate. Because I think that we need to go all in, even with our fear and our ideas of liberation and care for ourselves, we need to go all in if we really are going to commit to liberation and body autonomy. And, you know, people, I think, use and misuse the term decolonize a lot. And as someone who's Puerto Rican, and Puerto Rico's a colony, I just have a complicated relationship with that language. But if that's what people want to do that we need to step it up, and I really want to offer the courses that I believe we need right now. So things about failure and apologies. You know, where do you hold the fear of messing up in your body? How do you help that fear move through your body? How do you, you know, manage it, how do you hold it, and really doing that kind of work, but also intellectualizing it as well so that we're in our body, but we're in our heads, and we're trying to figure out, what's the best thing for our body mind at this moment. And I just saw so many people failing, and not being supported, and people asking questions and not having a place to go. And so that's one of the reasons why I'm one of the first classes I did was the intersectionality class, I just saw that happening, so much misuse, but also there's no conversation in our field about abortion. So my second course, was an abortion class about what's going on? What are the laws? How does this impact people? What really happens during a first second, and late term abortion procedure? What does that mean, that therapist should know, these things as well as educators, and also what does it mean that our field doesn't really have a connection to abortion education, there's no sexuality program, or certificate program that has a conversation about abortion. So we're really training people in our field that just are not prepared. And so I really wanted to offer solutions to that. And so I chose to do it in a virtual way, because the internet has just changed all of our lives. We live in the future now. But um, I wanted it to be accessible as possible to many people. So we use the zoom platform. And, you know, I don't record the courses. But I'm currently considering recording my doing my solo discussion in PowerPoint to offer to people where they can just purchase the course, if they want to do it in the privacy of their own home and not really have face to face conversation. And then also offering like an additional hour if they want to spend some time with me asking questions or going over a project. So I wanted to offer these things as an opportunity to to imagine what could it look like for us to go all in for what we're saying we really want to go all in with, and realizing that we might not be fully prepared for it and being okay with that, and then also figuring out the path, so that we're doing a lot of the work now that none of us have really been trained to do. You know, we have clients and educate like, people presenting with topics that are just so complicated. You know, and just four years ago, I was teaching a class on Sex and Culture. And I talked about like, just the word white supremacy and there were like a handful of therapists who were like, I don't really think this is a big deal. Like, it's not that big of a deal. Like, I think you're over, you know, whatever. And we would never have that conversation today. You know, and it's just four years later, four short years, and how quickly things have shifted. And I think, you know, I think climate change is gonna be the next big thing too, because we're not talking about how climate change is affecting our clients with disabilities, or affecting how people can access services or even take their medications if they don't have clean water. So, um, you know, so many pieces that I was never trained about climate change, like, programming was not invested in that. So it's also a learning opportunity for me because as an independent scholar, I miss that kind of exploration and knowledge production with other individuals. So I'm also creating a space where I need to also learn and unlearn and tighten my education, philosophy and approach to be able to offer people what they need, and the vision that I offer, and also being able to offer an example of what accountability can look like, as a learning space. So you know, I have my team of people very front and center, who hold me accountable when I do this work. And there are people who are in interdisciplinary fields. So I have a really close friend, Jessica Johnson, who is a historian who's taught me how to go into the archives and how to really sit with the coding and, and then have like Cory Silverberg who does amazing work with children and children's books. So he really helps me focus on language and editing and what is do you really want this word to mean this thing? And I have Shinya who is a sex therapist, who, you know, holds me accountable by just checking in on me, you know, I just got a text from her when she was like, how are you? What's going on? How's your body feel? You know, so I have, and then Iasha, who's an educator, and just completed her PhD. She's being hooded this weekend. You know, and she shared with me, she's like, here's what my daughter is doing today. And she said your name, you know, so I have people who love me and who are my inner circle? And they're often the people that I would go to and say, Hey, can you check, check me? Because am I overreacting? Or is this really an issue?

Alex Iantaffi: 6:42

important to have that, yeah.

Bianca Laureano: 6:43

Absolutely and so I really want to model like what this hard work about accountability looks like, I mwan it's not just one way that it looks so many different ways. And so I have a course on accountability. Because over the last two years, there's been a lot of talk and movement around accountability processes occurring in the sexuality field, especially with sexuality educators. And some people who are in like a polyamorous communities, I think the most recent accountability process is happening or transformative justice processes happening is with Franklin Zhou and Eve Recut. And you know, that's a really complicated narrative, and that's layered and beautiful. And, you know, really is holding on to what do people who experience harm need to heal from that harm? And what do we do with the texts that have really helped us and our clients, and yet one of the authors has caused harm to their partners. You know, what do we do with that. And these are, you know, I say this, because these are very public. And if people want to find more, all of these community accountability processes are documented, most of them are being held on medium. So people can find out more if they are interested in that by doing a search for individuals names. So they're also the public part, right? Like how that's also a form of love, for self for community. And also an example of like, this is what we can do when we're harmed collectively and what does it mean that we can all collectively be traumatized, but also collectively heal together as well?

Alex Iantaffi: 8:27

Exactly and staying connected through that process? Yeah, this was such a beautiful conversation. And I realized I was like, we've been talking for like, an hour. And I didn't even ask you, like, I was like, Oh, yes, I was gonna ask you about like, the intersection of like, your, you know, gender and race and your experience and kind of being a black woman in the field. And, you know, all of that. I was like, we didn't even get to that. Do you have some time to get to that?

Bianca Laureano: 8:53

Yeah I do. Usually, I booked us for two hours, just in case because I was like, we never know, technology. It's the future. But also, I can't get a video to play on my PowerPoint. So yeah.

Alex Iantaffi: 9:05

You were very smart because like, people are like to talk and I'm like, yes. Send me all the things of your amazing work and anything, listeners will love it, too. So yeah, in one of, you know, I'm kind of curious about how you came to be in the field, and a match of kind of your own experience. You know, in an interview that was reading, you know, you talk about your girlhood, for example, being both racialized and framed by immigrant experience. And so that made me wonder, a match with kind of your own experience growing up, and that the intersection of gender and race and also coming from an immigrant experience, informed your passion for all the things that you're doing now and your commitment to all those things too?

Bianca Laureano: 9:47

Yeah. So it's interesting because people sometimes think that Puerto Ricans can't have an immigrant experience, because we have US citizenship due to colonization. However, if you think about it a little bit more critically, because a completely different country, it has a different constitution. I mean, people have, you know, historically, Spanish was the official language of that country. And yet, a couple of years ago, it was changed to English and Spanish. So yeah, you know, my parents were raised speaking Spanish, and moving from the country that they were born in, or my dad was born, and my mom was born in New York, and then flew back to Puerto Rico to be raised as a girl. You know, that is leaving your homeland, everything that you know, and showing up in Washington, DC, where there's all the seasons, which you never got in Puerto Rico, or you don't speak the language. You know, that's a very immigrant experience. It's very, it's displacing, it's scary. And being able to realize that, oh, even that nobody really knows the history of Puerto Rico. So, you know, my parents have stories of being asked for their green cards, and they're like, what's a green card, you know, and being labeled in a very particular way. So they were racialized and identified as other. They had accents. My dad still, you know, his most comfortable language to speak in is Spanish. So, you know, that has been very much the common experience that I had. And also, my parents arrived in the US, because my father received a full grant, to go to American University to attend an MFA program. And that was at the time when the Civil Rights Act had passed. And a lot of universities weren't yet being encouraged to expand their pool of applicants. And when they were, many people look to Puerto Rico, because they're like, oh, it's easy to go there. But they never thought the language issues. So my dad showed up, ready to paint and learn about art history. But he didn't speak or read English. So you know, my parents had a very Catholic upbringing, they were in gender segregated schools that were very binary. They were raised Catholic. And they really had like, a very Catholic courtship, where they weren't alone, they did group dates. And their first probably really alone time was their wedding time, and then they immediately left their home and family and moved to another country. And so, you know, that was the reality that my parents had. And so, you know, my mom was the one who spoke English. And so she was the primary person that had like a full time job with benefits, while my dad, you know, back then, like in the 70s, being a MFA is not what it means to be MFA today, back then you were painting and trying to get gallery openings and selling your work. And so that's what my father was doing and also taking part time jobs. So it was a very working class family because women were never paid what they should be in the 70s, and 80s, and 90s. And, you know, and I had my father being the person who was home with us, more so than my mother. So it was a very different experience and one that people when I tell them that are like, Oh, it's such a feminist experience. And I'm like, actually, it's an immigrant one. Like it's not... It's not feminist at all but thank you.

Alex Iantaffi: 13:26

Yes. Yes. Um, so, you know, one of the things when I started to go to college and started reading, you know, I didn't realize what privilege it was to have a recently white mother who could speak English eloquently. And when she walked into like a school building or the principal's office, or wherever, that people respected her and they listened to her. And, you know, it wasn't until I read Frantz Fanon, Black Skin, White Masks, where he says it's very much a privilege to have a white mother. I was like, Oh, snap, I have a white mom. Let me think about this. That it really allowed me to think more, more creatively about what that meant. And you know, and I was raised in a home that was very Puerto Rican, but it was also very anti black. And I tell people, I'm like a throwback, where I don't really look like any of the immediate people in my family. I popped out with significantly kinkier hair significantly brouder features. And a lot of my growing up were periods of my parents sitting together on the couch and looking at my face and be like, Oh, I think she has your grandfather's cheekbones. And I think she had, you know, just really dissecting me in a very particular way to kind of try to make sense of how I was looking and what I look like and you know, even simple things from like, how my skin ended up being what it needed to be when puberty started, you know. I As many people of color, you know, I have different colors all over my body and that's common. And yet my parents were like, why are you so dirty? You know, so things that they just never understood because they didn't, you know, have that experience. And I didn't have like, share the body type of my mother. So it wasn't easy for her to say this is your body, love it, enjoy it, whatever, you know, we struggled with figuring out what to do with my hair. And, and I realized, I was like, okay, you know what, I'm not having the same experience that my sister is having who looks a lot more like people or a family. And that was when my racial identity started to really solidify. And I do this activity with people that I borrowed from Bell Hooks. In the class, when we talk about race, or gender, I asked people, you know, write about the first memory that you have when you learned about your gender, or write about a first memory that you had when you learned about your race. And, you know, my first memory was being like three, and just seeing the curls on my head being cut off and falling to the floor. And looking up into the mirror after I got a hair cut in Puerto Rico, that, you know, basically made my hair looks straight, because all my curls were gone. Me saying I looked like a boy. And everybody's gonna think I'm a boy. And it occurred, it happened to me because my hair was too black looking. Right. So it was a very racialized and gendered experience. But I didn't realize those comparisons and complexities until I was significantly older. And so my parents struggle, I mean, my mother has passed. But my dad struggled a lot with my racial identity as a black, Puerto Rican, he, you know, it's been hard for us and our relationship, we had huge fights where he was like, if you think you're black, I'm not your father, you know, and that has hurt me to my core, it's so many different ways, I'm finally able to talk about it without crying or without feeling shame. And that's because we were able to sit down, and I was able to tell him, You don't know what it was like, growing up, being me in our family, you know, what it was, like growing up being you, but not me. And I, you know, and we were able to have this conversation and be able, you know, he was able to apologize for me for saying that and identify his own anti blackness that showed up for him in that way, and it just all the things that come with, you know, my cousin's teasing me my whole life that I was adopted, that I didn't look like anybody. You know, those are our stories that are part of my identity and it's part of why I identify as a black Latina. I'm very light skin. So it's not one of those, um, I'm visibly blacks in the way that people look for racialized clues in the United States. But it's one of those things where black people are like, oh, yeah, I you know, I see it. And it's not a question. And it's, it's not a political identity for me, either. It's very much my lived reality. You know, so I taught a class in Portland, two days ago, where, you know, a black woman's like, I'm always the only black woman in the room. And I was like, you're right. I was like, you were the only visible black woman in this room. I was like, I racially identify as black but I'm light skinned. And colorism is real. I get benefits from my lighter skin. And, you know, that was one of the reasons why I became the voice of WOCSHN for a very long time because Marianna and Trina and I were like, I'm the lightest one. I have the degrees that this field values. So I should be the one that says the really hard stuff very directly that kind of like, sets a fire under people, where many people were like, Oh, my gosh, Bianca's so intimidating, but I hear what she's saying. What do I do about it? Oh, I can go to Marianna and Trina they look a lot nicer. So we knew how colorism would work. Yeah.

Bianca Laureano: 18:52

We totally used it to our advantage and you know, we wipe things like white supremacy and colorism, that stuff is so predictable. So what happened? The exact way we expected it to. Marianna was AASECT Co-chair for two conferences. She was able to pull in Jailene, who is a sex educator and I don't know if she identifies as a therapist right now. But she's an academic. And, you know, it was the first time that ASSECT had two women of color, who were both WOCSHN members who were co chairs of the National Conference. So you know, the change happens, and it also was very strategic. And so, you know, I tell people a lot when we talk about intersectionality is that our identities change. And my identity changed when I was 15 years old, and I was like, Oh, I'm realizing that like, I'm being treated as a black person who was treated in my community, and not just in my family, but in my school community and, you know, went to a school that was very diverse. But we have a lot of African and Caribbean immigrants as well as refugees from Cambodia and Vietnam, and then a bunch of racially white people, so is diverse in that way, but also, people just racialized me in a very particular way. I'm also like six feet tall, and I'm fat. And so I was also very much, you know, already showing very adult characteristics in my body when I was 14 years old. And so I very much understood power in my body to be something that my parents just didn't know how to talk to me about, you know, my mother never had a very large chest, or she wasn't very visible in her community. And the way that I was at 14 being five, eight, and looking as if I was 21, just because I existed, you know, and recognizing that I use that power in a way that wasn't always safe. But I was I was like, Oh, but I want these new sneakers. And this person says they'd buy them for me, if I just go to lunch with them. You know, like, I put myself in situations that were unsafe, but also that I felt that that 14 year old Bianca felt very comfortable in making and that she, she being 14 year old Bianca still very much felt was in control of what she was doing. And so I have currently this attempt to like really honor a 14 year old, Bianca's, you know, radical understanding of herself and also 41 year old Bianca's ability to say, actually, you know, there was some power dynamics here, and there are some issues of power. And so, yeah, so I've had like this very broad, very interesting experience. I've also been one of those people, where individuals will be like, Oh, but you look like this, I'll be like, you could be this. So I also have, like a very racially ambiguous look to so many people, which has gotten me privileges in many ways, you know, like, people, I think, you just remind me so much that my daughter and Lebanon, come and have this balaclavas or whatever it is, you know. So that's also been a part of it. And then, you know, as an adult, I became, like, identify as a FEM, I'm queer, fat femme. That was also an identity that wasn't always honored or valued or embraced in a queer community. Right? So So what is partnering look like as a fat person? What is partnering look like now as an aging fat crip femme who's queer, you know, what is? What does that mean for me? And so it's been a really interesting experience. But it's also been something that's guided my work. And that's also guided how I create the curriculum that I create. Because I have to ask myself, like, what did my parents need in order for them to fully embrace who I am like what they need to do. And I don't know what that is. But I like to believe that my mother, she died three years ago, she now can fully see me. And she was never someone that wanted to compete with me, and really gave me the freedom to, to do what I wanted to do. You know, like, they weren't telling me that I had to study a particular thing. They're like, just pick a major, we don't care. And so even my parents don't fully understand what I do today. No, my dad understands I write curriculum. But he, you know, he doesn't always understand like, what is the sex ed curriculum mean? It's just so foreign to him. You know, but I'm okay with that. Like, we're okay with understanding. And I tell him, I train adults, I trained therapists that can be better, I train educators so they can reimagine their disciplinary actions. And, you know, these are some of the things that I do. And so he understands that work and how important it is. And yeah, I don't think that he understands how important that work is for a person of color who really identifies as black and he's a queer, fat fem, what, what that means how that's a powerful, radical thing. And it's something that I talk a lot about with my partner G, where I'm like, Listen, you know, if I die first, my people, like, don't let my father like, create this whole like, event for me. That's not what I want. Like, my people are not my biological family who know me better, like you are. So and so is. These are my inner circle people that I want you to go to. Yeah, and I'll put it in writing and you know, so there's a way that there is some kind of separatism between the work that I do and my family, but it's also because that's what my family has the capacity to understand. My sister is also queer, and she's younger, she got me off the hook when my parents were like, where are the grandbabies? Because her and her wife had three children, and one of them was a set of twins, and, you know, so she really had a different experience coming out than I do. Like I never had to come out as queer because my whole existence was clear to them. Whereas my sister very much chose to do the very western coming out process with them. So yeah, I think I've had like a very beautiful wxample of love and family and what that could look like, you know, my family, when we were able to like make roots in Maryland, we were fostering people from Puerto Rico who wanted to leave Puerto Rico and see if they could make their own living, living in the States. We would house people for like six months at a time, so that people could really figure out what they wanted to do in the US and that was our reality. Like, we always have people coming through our home, you know, our parents never excluded us from talking about, like, here's who's coming to stay with us. And they also really were committed to their family. So my parents separated when I was 16 but my father always had a key to the house. You know, we always had holidays together. And when my mother, she died of Alzheimer's and dementia, and so when that got worse, my father was like, we have to get an official divorce. They've been separated for like over 20 years at that point. And, and he had married his long term girlfriend at the time and he was like, I told my girlfriend, that your mother is my family, and if she needs anything, including to move in with us, because that's the only way that she can get care that she has to be okay with that. And, and she said, Yes, I'm okay with that. So I was able to I was offered by my parents a really beautiful way of what family can look like, even if you're not romantically still together. And, and that's been something that I really value. And for me, that's the queerness also in my family of, you know, them encouraging cohabitation over marriage. But I'm also saying, like, we are a family, this is who we are, and we're gonna stay together, even if we're not living together. So that was something that I really carry with me and that I see as a really important piece of my Puerto Rican identity is having that kind of family understanding. And, you know, it's kind of similar to what queer communities do in many ways. So it's been a really great extension of understanding, you know, the work that I want to do, because it's also guided me to, you know, divest in disposability, because my family did it with each other. So, yeah, it's been good. Thank you so much for letting me talk about that.

Alex Iantaffi: 27:26

Oh, absolutely and I think that's one of the things that really resonates in the way that you write about your work and the way you do your work is that it is deeply rooted in experience, right? This is not just an intellectual exercise. For you, it's really deeply rooted in kind of experiences you've had and that kind of displacement in lots of different ways, as you've described, and I think, for me, that really resonates in a lot of ways, right? I was as I was listening to you, I was just having all this moments of like, oh, yeah, like, clearly different life experiences. But also, like I was thinking about, you know, my mom is from Sicily and has like five feet and really dark skin. And like being aware of colorism when I was pretty young, because my brother and other people in our family would comment about her skin color, right. And so how colorism globally, can look really different in lots of different ways. But that root of anti blackness can show up in so many different ways in so many different families. Even you know, though, I'm like quiet appearing, and then like, put, like my mom and me and my daughter and a lion, you can see that white flight, you know, you could take a white flight. You know, from from the global south to as north as you can get to, you know, I mean, I guess I could move to Alaska. My mother more she already felt like, you know, maybe, you know, that's the worst thing to do. Even worse than being queer and trans. Things are okay.

Bianca Laureano: 29:05

Right but the kids and babies. But maybe they want to hold the babies. Yeah.

Alex Iantaffi: 29:09

Exactly. Right. And it's, oh, my God, that that could be like a whole other episode, right, like, right errands and queer people and babies since it's complicated.

Bianca Laureano: 29:20

Absolutely. And also, as someone you know, I chose to be child free, like early in my 20s. And that being like a radical thing, or my parents were just like, what are you talking about? We want our babies. And we'd be like, it's just not for me, believe me. I've thought a lot about it. Like, you know, like, I want you to be happy for me that I've spent this much time thinking about being a parent. And I realized that I don't, I don't want to do it. It's not for me, I want to be an aunt. I will be the best aunt ever. I want to be like the person who helps children find their trusted adults and helps them feel safe in their body and what that means for them. And that's where I want to be I don't want to be a parent. You know, so yeah.

Alex Iantaffi: 30:01

And that's such an amazing role, though, that you have in the world for a lot of young people, right? Because, you know, that mentorship, you know, role is just so important. And I think often it's not valued as much, at least here in the US, in my experiences, this idea of kind of nuclear family in the broader sense of community, and that all parts are essential. You know, if I think about a lot of women in my family actually growing up who chose not to have children, and are essential they were my upbringing, you know, and it's something that I don't see, valued as much I think, in dominant culture.

Bianca Laureano: 30:39

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, people just assume that there's one role for us that we should do that. And it's like, actually, I want more complicated roles, and I want more in depth roles. And, and it's meaningful, you know, when I think about how people have spoken to me when I've shared, I don't want to be a parent. It's, it's very much a different way than people talk to people who experience a pregnancy that they didn't plan, or they weren't ready for. You know, I've thought a lot about pregnancy, a lot about abortion, and adoption and foster care. And, you know, I know what feels best for me, and you know, fostering feels best than pregnancy. And you know, and that's just me, and I like having that conversation to really explore what's possible, especially for people who are experiencing infertility in our community, I'm are struggling with that. And I have so many friends, queer friends now who are building their families. And so I'm kind of surrounded by babies now. A joy that I didn't expect to experience. So it's nice that, you know, 21 year old Bianca knew what 41 year old Bianca would need. And that it's that that need has, you know, been the right decision that I made for myself, I think we don't always, you know, celebrate that kind of astuteness that people demonstrate for themselves as just being very thoughtful about what kind of life they want to live and who they want to be in the world. And yeah, being a parent wasn't, wasn't something that I wanted to do. And it wasn't because I couldn't imagine doing it without a child, it was just because I know, the level of responsibility, I just felt like I really had too much that I had to be responsible for in my own life before I could really share it with other people. And so I'm one of those people that you know, partnered very late in life. And so G and I we're in a very new, you know, relationship that is going on two years old. And, you know, I was religious people that I thought I would never really find the loving, caring relationship that I would want. And I would probably have just, you know, a slew of lovers throughout my life off and on, and there'll be one of my best friends that would care for me as I grew older. So when she came into my life, it was really the record scratch of it all.

Alex Iantaffi: 32:57

Surprise.

Bianca Laureano: 33:00

It's been a great surprise to, you know, be partner with someone who really is honest with themselves and is honest with me, and we push each other to be better. And we also push each other when it's hard. And I'm really, you know, thankful that we were able to find each other later in life, when we were very clear about what are, our ethics are, and how we want to move in the world and how we want to talk about our relationships. So I'm really thankful for that. And, you know, our relationship has shifted, because my mobility has changed. I'm currently using a wheelchair, and you know, G was my care attendant for the last four months and it really put a strain on our relationship. Because it just does. Care work is so much work. And yes, the interdependence piece is central to disability justice, as well as collective liberation. And we just haven't yet gotten to understanding okay, what does it mean to liberate ourselves from each other so that we can have other relationships and not be dependent you know, me only be able to go the bathroom if you could help me. You know, those kinds of difficult realities that careworkers bring up when one person has a chronic illness and a disability and, and how we still love each other. And that being like a really radical beautiful thing that I want us to model for other people. So us being very honest about that, so that we can be honest with our communities. Feels like you know, that grown up love that James Baldwin talks about.

Alex Iantaffi: 34:31

That was like, that's very grown up. Right?

Bianca Laureano: 34:34

Yeah, absolutely.

Alex Iantaffi: 34:35

Yeah. It's not what like, Oh, my friend Meg-John Barker recently wrote about hot love, right, that that the big hot love, it's not sometimes quite the same as the grown up love that it's much more complicated than where you get to have conversations about the boundaries of caregiving and partnership, which actually, it's quite the dance, in my experience.

Bianca Laureano: 34:58

Oh, absolutely and also you know, just think of the things that are going on, you know, for me, it's the person who's in pain and who's, you know, having a different relationship with their body. And really shifting the way I mean. Disability Justice saved my life is the result of this conversation. Because I really, I needed someone to say to me, you value an anti capitalist politic. And that's what this really justice offers us. You are, you are your whole, you know, like you are whole, even if you're not working, you're still a valuable member to our society, and you're worthy of love and care and a livable wage, and also this stuff. So it's really important for me to be able to share that and I feel and believe that, in our field, we haven't really had a full integration of disability justice, as much as we can really benefit from. And I think, if we're able to introduce a disability justice framework, and its entirety and exactly how the Crip scholars wanted it to look who created it, all independent scholars in their own rights, many people of color, all people of color, actually, you know, that our. The work that we do would just level up in such dynamic ways that it would surprise us and shock us. And that kind of shock and surprise really excites me because it means that more people are getting more access to what they deserve. Yeah.

Alex Iantaffi: 36:29

Absolutely. Like I love including in the the SAR, the sexual assessment seminar that people have to take to become sex educators, and therapists and counselors. I know, you know that. But like, for the listeners, I love to include them some of the work of Sins Invalid, for example, which are like a performance based company of folks who are disabled and queer and really come from the lens and their documentary has so much about sexuality and sensuality, in that in this kind of disability justice framework, and that it's new to a lot of people sadly, and I think it's really essential. You know, it's foundational.

Bianca Laureano: 37:10

Absolutely. Yeah, you know, Petty burn is like, really good friend of mine. And she's the D of since a valid, yeah, and CC Melbourne is also a really great friend. And so it's been a really beautiful shift in my life to move to the Bay Area, to be with my partner who was raised in the Bay Area. And be instantly connected to this brilliance that I've read about that I heard about that I was, like, one degree away from, and then build my own, you know, connections and relationships with and, you know, so Patti, and I wanted to co-collaborate and offer a Disability Justice meets Reproductive Justice course. So that's coming in 2020.

Alex Iantaffi: 37:49

You'll have to let me know the date so I can

Bianca Laureano: 37:51

Absolutely, we're still in the works, you come. know, since invalid usually does a performance. So I didn't want to offer it when they were already preparing and focusing on that. But Patty has very publicly also shared that she's surviving endometrial cancer, and I'll share on my Facebook page, her request for support and care, you know, support that Medicaid, Medicare doesn't cover. And she'll need 24 hour support and nutrient dense medicine, you know, not medicine, food, etc. But, you know, Patty is one of those people that, you know, my mom died three years ago, and it just devastated me, it was such a visceral loss that to lose my first relationship on the planet. Like, it shook me in a way that I didn't expect. And I was so public about my grief and my mourning process. And I was single at the time, and a lot of my friends just didn't know how to care for me. So it's really helped me come into a different understanding of care work. And so I met Patty, and she was like, Oh, my goodness, I lost my mom. And it still hurts me all this time. And so we were able to bond over our grief, which is something that I wasn't able to do with too many people. And, you know, just recently, I sent her a text, because I love watching movies about cults. I don't know why it just as fascinated. So I saw the movie Midsummer. I'm like, yeah, yeah. And so I sent her a text, and I was like, hey, just checking out on you. And then you're going through a lot. You don't have to respond, but I just thought Midsummer Because Patti loves horror films. And I was like, it's more gory than horror. But there's a scene where one of the key women is grieving and she's screaming and she's having this really intense physical response to all this grief in our life. And there's like these eight women that are just mirroring her grief and are just screaming with her and crying with her. And I was like, I totally want to have a screaming crying ceremony or experience, and I know that you will be the one homie that would do it with me. So, whenever you want to scream about what you're dealing with, I'm happy to come and scream with you. And, you know, it's that's the kind of relationship that we have or we can talk so vulnerable, like we can be so vulnerable with each other, around the grief, and also, how grieving is also such a individual process, like we didn't really have a whole collective experience of mourning and grief, but that it really, we just neither one of us were really prepared for what the impact of losing our mothers would, would be for us. So, so yeah, I've just I'm so thankful for that exchange, and also being able to talk about grief in our field, and how grief and loss show up for us. I did a presentation a couple of years ago about the erotic power of grief, using Audrey Lords erotic power, uses something erotic erotic power, and talking about like how I found more erotic power in my mourning process. And in the ways that I was able to be vulnerable publicly, and realizing that oh, people aren't ready for talking about grief, in the same ways that they weren't ready about talking about sex 20 years ago. And so, you know, as queer people, like, we're grieving all the time, it feels like and so what, what can we do? How can we honor that grief? And how can we show up for each other when it's happening? And how can we be honest about its impacts on us, has also really been a direction that I've been talking about, just with my community. So yeah.

Alex Iantaffi: 41:36

Which I love that direction. Because in so many ways, we have been so impacted by like, the ongoing settler colonial project and whiteness, you know, I just, I feel so grateful growing up having that experience of collecting grief, you know, and my grandma being like, all the dads and the candles and talking to them. And then the, you know, the closest English word would be like keening, you know, and grief that people can do together. And, and now gendered grief is also like that collective of women usually can grieve together and take care of each other and we need that, we need that for our well being for survival, to feel that connection in grief.

Bianca Laureano: 42:18

Yeah. And it really helped me understand ritual in a different way, as well, because I was like, Oh, this is why ritual is so helpful when you're grieving and mourning, because you just have to follow the steps, right? And it's just something that's already laid out for you. And, you know, it's just so comforting to know that, like, you don't have to figure it out. It's already right here, just sit right here, hold this candle, eat this food, let this person you know, take your laundry, and whatever it looks like. And so yeah, you know, my grieving process really helped me also create different activities and worksheets and conversations that I wanted to have, because a lot of people, you know, I'm six feet tall, a lot of people are not, a lot of these people are my friends. And, you know, they wanted to hug me and comfort me. But they're five six. And so it wasn't a comfortable hug for me. And when I suggested, well, why don't we lay down and you can hug me, they just was like, Oh, my goodness, no laying down, that's a completely different thing and activity. So it was a very interesting understanding of how people considered laying down with someone in a bed and it just created a barrier where I couldn't get the kind of comfort that I needed, and that people wanted to offer me but only in a particular context. So it allowed me to think about, okay, what kind of physical touch could I offer my grieving friends? Would I be able to help them take off their clothes and get into the shower? Am I comfortable giving them a body massage, or a head rub? Am I comfortable, you know, like having them sob on me while I push their hair behind their ear? You know, all these different things that I'd never thought about before. And I've never really been asked for from a friend. And so it really helps me identify what I needed as far as like skin hunger and touch. And also, I helped me identify what I could offer as well. And so that's an activity that I do with a lot of people around touch and healing, is to have them think about what could you offer people? And, you know, what would you want if you were in a situation? And that's a conversation that people never really have. And they never think about. Oh, yeah, I do kind of want someone to bring me food versus me having to think about what the menus gonna be.

Alex Iantaffi: 44:33

I'm sort of tearing up, listening to you talk about this, because one of the things I'm thinking about is how terrible it is that touch has been sexualized in a very specific way, within white supremacy. You know, and, and I say that really intentionally because if I'm thinking about my experiences kind of growing up and think about all the ways in which I still have touch with like, members of my family or close friend, you know, my best friend, and really how the boundaries were so different for me growing up, and then looking around me in the US even noticing how parents stop having healthy touch with their children. As soon as like, they're a little bit older, and I feel really privileged to be living in a Latino neighborhood where I feel like other parents are more similar to the way up here to like touch their kids, you know, like, on the cheeks, and like, you know, all those kinds of things. I'm like, of course, I'm still gonna hug my 15 year old even though she's taller than me, I mean, like that, you know, consentually. Kind of that the the parents love and care about how deprived, you know, so many teenagers are, you know, within kind of, within, like families where there is no touch, where there is no comfort, where there is no, and then that kind of deprives them to be able to offer that to each other in a lot of ways, right? Because US culture is like, yeah, if you lay down thats sexual contact, right, somebody's grieving, of course, you're gonna just like wrap them up, right? You know, even lie down? I don't know, I'm just having some thoughts about how white supremacy impacts every aspect of our life, right.

Bianca Laureano: 46:24

None of us are free from it, unfortunately. But we all decide how to cope with the reality of it and yeah, I'll email you that worksheet so you can take a look.

Alex Iantaffi: 46:33

Yeah, cuz that is work that is so important for our clients, right? To think about it.

Bianca Laureano: 46:38

Yeah, definitely and to also think about it now versus when they're in the moment, because there's so much happening when you're in the moment, but you really don't have the opportunity for a clear, you know, deep breath with yourself to really feel what's happening. Yeah, and that, you know, that's where we're at now, but it's also a really helpful tool and practice. And it's in preparation for the world we're living in. Where people you know, that's the guarantee people are gonna die.

Alex Iantaffi: 47:06

Oh, absolutely.

Bianca Laureano: 47:07

That's, that's why we're, that's why we were birthed, so that we could live this life and then eventually demise. And, you know, it's, it's interesting, you know, how people respond to grief and death and mourning, and also how private it's been for many people. But yeah, I always tell people, I'm like, everybody knows what happens. Not

Alex Iantaffi: 47:25

Yeah, absolutely. You know, when when clients are everybody. But usually people know, what happens when a baby is born, and it doesn't get touched that baby dies? Why do distressed, and maybe they're had, they're having a big we think that changes when that baby grows up? Or continues to grow? Right? These are really important conversations to think vulnerability and and go over and ask for a hug, right? about. And I think, specifically, you know, bring this back to AASECT, they're having a conversation about Because that's going to offer them some containment, some touch, ending, what that means and what that looks like, and what does professional touch mean. And it's so vague, because yeah, what happens when you empathize with your client, and relational patch, that they really need to kind of get some they're crying, because they're grieving the loss of their partner. And you know exactly what that feels like, because closure on the session, right? Like, there are so many you also lost the partner, and it just touches something in you, and you have a human moment, and you touch each different ways in which we can ethically use touch with our other, like, those is that professional touch? I think, you know, these are important conversations to have. And they're also really important things for us to think about, clients. And you know, as a somatic experiencing and who we want to be and how we want to provide care. And so those are the conversations that I also bring into the summer practitioner, even as a talk therapist, you know, touch as a experience, because that's not conversations that I had in my car. And I had a very traditional car that just was place because of the, you know, what we know about interpersonal completely inadequate for the work that I wanted to do, and just be just knowing that I can offer people this workshop, or neurobiology, and all that kind of stuff. And I think ASSECT in this worksheet, to think about the kind of touch they can offer and the kind of touch they want to offer. It really impacts people immediately and I know that that's important for all of some way is so behind in thinking about touch, and how it us to consider. can be used therapeutically and in healthy ways that support kind of healing and well being and those conversations are so essential to our field so I'm so glad they include that in your work, and they're not at all surprised because so I could talk with you for another two hours. I'm gonna be respectful of your time and there's a question that I always ask at the end of interviews, which is is there anything we haven't talked about that you really wanted to talk about? And that I've missed?

Bianca Laureano: 50:04

I don't think so I feel like we touched on so many different things. Um, you know, the one shameless plug that I wanted to offer was Patty Burns on crowdfunding. So I'll post that on my Facebook, my professional Facebook page, and people can check that out and access it. And even if you can't offer anything, please share it, consider sharing it. You know, Patty has really touched so many people's lives. And, you know, this is her life's work. And if you want to know a little bit more about Patty's work, definitely go to the Sins Invalid website. One of my favorite pieces of hers that I use when I teach is available on YouTube. It's the award winning film, a chili story that talks about her chili allergy. And I love it so much. And it allows us to talk a lot about our bodies, and some of the most basic human things that our bodies do, that sexuality educators never really ever talk about. Outside of like, anal play, so yeah, I love that story. And it's one of the stories that I tell people, trust people when they say they have allergies, because it's gonna happen. And also, it's a really beautiful story about connection and flirting and taboo on top of taboo. She says, so yeah, so I encourage people to check those out and support Sins Invalid as well, if you can.

Alex Iantaffi: 51:28

Absolutely. I was gonna say like, do you have a call to action, but you did it. I love it. And I can also put in the episode description like and by the way, this is the link to the call of action. That has been the another episode. Absolutely. I will put that link there as well.

Bianca Laureano: 51:43

Yeah, I'll send it directly to you in the email that I send with the worksheet.

Alex Iantaffi: 51:47

Oh, that's wonderful. Thank you so much.

Bianca Laureano: 51:50

No problem.

Alex Iantaffi: 51:50

And I will put in the episode description, all the wonderful places in which people can find your work. But I think the main one is your website, probably right? Which is biancalaureano.com correct?

Bianca Laureano: 52:02

Yep. Exactly. And if you're interested in courses, that would be the anteup.com website. So yeah, you can reach me I'm very accessible. People are always like, I didn't realize you were just so easy to talk to. I'm like, yeah, I'm on Twitter. I'm on Instagram, I tried to get off Facebook, but I had to have a professional page update. But yeah, my email is out. So send me an email and I'm totally open to connecting with people and sharing resources. You know, that's my anti capitalist politics, too. So, you know, if you want to, you know, offer the worksheet or if you want to post it, I'm also totally fine with that.

Alex Iantaffi: 52:42

And I can attest to just how accessible you are. I just dropped you an email, you know, I've been admiring your work from afar. And then I was like, hey, I have this tiny podcast. Can I interview and you were like, yes. on it. So, you know, it's true. Bianca saying it's very, very true. Well, thank you so much once more for kind of being on the podcast. There's just so much wisdom, and so much vulnerability and authenticity and expertise that you shared with our listeners. I'm so very grateful for your time.

Bianca Laureano: 53:14

Thank you. I'm grateful for this conversation. So let's figure out what we need to do to have another one.

Alex Iantaffi: 53:22

I'm all for it. I don't know when we stop recording and be like so Bianca, I have an idea.

Bianca Laureano: 53:27

Absolutely. I'm excited to hear it. Thank you so much, Alex.

Alex Iantaffi: 53:30

Oh, thank you, Bianca. And thank you so much Gender Stories, listeners for being with us for another episode. I really appreciate all of you and if you have feedback about this conversation, or any other conversations or any topics that you would like me, for you would like for me to cover in the podcast, please contact me at genderstoriespodcast@gmail.com or find me on Twitter. I'm also very accessible and I would love to hear from you. Thank you so much.