Gender Stories
Gender Stories
Gender Stories meets Gender Reveal: a conversation with Molly Woodstock
Alex Iantaffi interviews the creator, host and producer of the weekly, award-winning podcast Gender Reveal. Molly Woodstock is a journalist, audio producer, and inclusivity educator. They are queer and trans and biracial and other things. Molly frequently leads diversity & equity workshops with an emphasis in transgender topics. They have been featured as a gender educator in the New York Times, NPR, Washington Post, SF Chronicle, and other publications. They were a 2019 Third Coast/Ragdale radio resident and a 2019 Third Coast featured speaker. Molly has previously worked as a health editor, a vegan food writer, and the editor of the Portland visitors guide. They’ve written 500+ articles for various publications and edited hundreds more. Their bylines include such outlets as the Washington Post, Bitch, and Portland Monthly, You can find out more about Molly and their work at https://mollywoodstock.com/
Instagram: GenderStories
Hosted by Alex Iantaffi
Music by Maxwell von Raven
Gender Stories logo by Lior Effinger-Weintraub
There's a whole lotta things I want to tell you about. Adventures dangerous and queer. Some you could guess and some I've only hinted at, so please lend me your ear.
Narrator:I want to tell you everyone has a relationship with gender. What's your story? Hello and welcome to Gender stories with your host, Dr. Alex Iantaffi.
Alex Iantaffi:Welcome to another episode of Gender Stories with your host Dr. Alex Iantaffi. And I know I'm excited every time but I'm extra extra excited today because I get to interview fellow podcaster Molly Woodstock. Molly Woodstock is a journalist, audio producer and inclusivity educator. They are queer and trans and biracial and other things that I'm sure we'll talk about. Molly frequently leads diversity and equity workshops with an emphasis on transgender topics. And they've been featured as a gender educator in the New York Times, NPR, Washington Post, San Francisco Chronicle and other publications. Molly produces the newest and award winning weekly podcast called Gender Reveal. I am super excited for you all to find out about Gender Reveal if you don't know about it, and if you know about it, you get to listen to Molly so when When Molly is also a 2019 Coast Ragdale radio resident and a 2019 First Coast featured speaker Molly has previously worked as an alpha editor, a vegan food writer and the editor of the Portland visitor guide. They've written over 500 articles for various publications and edited hundreds of articles of other articles, thereby lines includes such outlets as the Washington Post beach and Portland monthly. Molly holds a BFA in documentary film production from Chapman University. And also they feel obligated to tell you that there is Sagittarius sun and the Leo rising. I'm sure we'll get to talk about that, too. And they live in Portland, Oregon with a kitten named Rhubarb. I'm like peices, with cancer rising. Right, different. I know I'm with the Leo moon. I mean, it's kind of a mess really, in my chart, so much water. Well, welcome, Molly, thank you so much for agreeing to be on Gender Stories. I really appreciate it.
Molly Woodstock:Yeah, of course. Thank you so much for having me.
Alex Iantaffi:So just in case, I think it's probably unlikely, but just in case people don't know about your amazing podcast Gender reveal, would you like to share with them? The Gender Stories, listeners, kind of what Gender Reveal is about? And what motivated you to start it?
Molly Woodstock:Yeah, so the story I tell about starting Gender Reveal is that I went to a podcast conference in 2017, because I was working on a different podcast at the time. And the podcast conference was billed as a conference for women and non binary people. And then I got there and it was like, clearly just for cis women. And there was like no other trans people there that I could find. And there are also actually very few queer people there. And so the topics that I'm most interested in, which are like queer topics, and trans topics, and the way that that intersects with race and class and ability and size, and all sorts of stuff like that, there was no space to talk about those things at the conference, other than with, like five other queer people. And so because I was at a podcasting conference, I started thinking about what would it look like to make a podcast where I got to have like, the really high level, gender conversations that I was having with my own community, but in a platform that allowed other people who aren't usually exposed to those conversations to have access to that. And that looks like two different things. One of them is trans people, or people who may realize that they're trans after listening to the podcast, who don't have access to those communities in real life, and who can use the podcast and the community around the podcast to like, learn more about themselves and find community. And then also it looks like cisgender people who don't have exposure to these spaces, because obviously trans people don't love talking about gender with cis people all the time, because it's really exhausting. It gives them an opportunity to learn from trans people without asking for like, really personal draining labor because like, I don't want to have conversations with every single cis person about what gender is first 61 hours or however much broadcast I've made, but like they're welcome to listen to the podcast.
Alex Iantaffi:And that's wonderful and I love all of the different voices that you sent her because you tend to center QD BIPOC voices and I would like you to share with the listeners kind of why that choice, which I mean, makes sense to me. But just to be really clear to the listeners why you're making that choice, which I think it's a wonderful choice.
Molly Woodstock:Yeah thank you. So I'm very deliberate about the fact that the majority of our guests are black, indigenous and/or people of color. And we have at least one like Two Spirit or Two Spirit adjacent guest on each season. And the reasons that I do that is mostly because queer and trans spaces that I'm a part of get very, very white very, very quickly. I live in Portland, Oregon, which is 76%, white. And then just online as well, I just see a lot of whiteness, and in the media representation of non binary people, I see a lot of whiteness. And I just think it's really, really important to celebrate folks who are trans or non binary, who aren't white, when just because like they deserve representation, and they're underrepresented right now. But also, because cultures that aren't white, of various kinds often have a much richer and deeper history of trans and non binary identities, or what we would now call trans, non binary identities that go back, you know, centuries and millennia, whereas like, European folks are coming to trans and non binary identities a lot more recently. And so I really like to look at what gender looks like for people of different experiences, and what if we could decolonize our concepts of gender? what that would look like for different people? And what would it look like for them to return to the gender concepts like of their ancestors?
Alex Iantaffi:I love that, that that's one of the things that I'm finding more and more that I cannot talk about gender without talking about the ongoing settler colonial project, and how the two are completely just interwoven, right? The rigid gender binary, and the ongoing settler colonial project, and like white supremacy all seem to go hand in hand with one another. And yes, and I love that on gender reveal, I think you explore that from a lot of different facets, and of course, lots of different aspects of gender, too. But that's one of the ways in which you engage with it. Kind of doing gender reveal, what are the things that have surprised you the most kind of doing this podcast, either in terms of people you've interviewed, or kind of interfacing with your listeners?
Molly Woodstock:Yeah, I think that this shouldn't have been surprising to me. But I live in Portland, Oregon, and it is so trans here, there's just a really strong trans culture and a really strong queer culture. And when I'm out in the world, I see trans people around me all the time and that's really normal to me. And so something that really became obvious when I started making the podcast is that there's a lot of people who don't have any trans community in real life. Like even in Portland, I'm meeting people in Portland, who are like, I just came out as trans or I'm not out as trans yet, please help me find community because I don't know any other trans people. But also, obviously, outside of Portland, all across the world, there are people who are reaching out and saying, like, this is a really vital lifeline for me, because I don't get to see trans people in real life, or I only know like one or two other trans people in real life. And this has given me a tool to feel validated in my gender, because I'm not seeing in real life, other people who look like me, or who experienced gender, the way that I do. So that's been really huge and really powerful. And one thing that's really helped with that as well is that I had so many different folks reaching out to me, trying to like, be my friend, because I was the trans person that they knew, right? So they would reach out online and be like, Oh, you're trans and I'm trans, let's be good friends. And I was like, I love you. And also like, I don't have time for like, the three friends that I have, you know, and so I was like, Okay, I can't be like every listeners best friend, unfortunately, because of time and space. But what I can do is like create a really robust community for everyone to meet each other and support each other. And so I created a Slack, which is at bit.li/genderslack2, the number two, and it's just a community where like hundreds of people who listen to Gender Reveal, or who somehow found out about the slack, come and create community for each other and it's all over the world and it's people who are out people, who aren't out people who are in the midst of coming out people, who just realized they were trans yesterday from listening to the podcast, people who have been out for like a decade and it's or more and it's a really really beautiful community. But it really does highlight how many different places in their journey everyone is.
Alex Iantaffi:And and I love what you said about kind of, you know, people do one community and you created that community. But just because you're doing gender reveal you can be everybody's friend, right and which is very real. As a fellow, I mean, I'm an introvert. So I was like I already have trouble seeing the like, on a regular basis. And that recently met John Bercow wrote this blog post about kind of treating writers where other people kind of consensually or. And I'm curious about and I've also had interactions like because you know, there is a book out there, and people really relate to it or may even have figured out more about your gender because of it, kind of how do you find this experience of people feeling like they know you because they listen to the podcast, but they don't know you at the same time if that makes sense.
Molly Woodstock:Yeah, parasocial relationships are really interesting to me and it's something that I think about a lot. And I come at it from both sides. Because like, there are people who listen to the podcast, who know a lot about me, and I don't know them. But then also, when I interview people for the show, I'm researching them for days, and then they don't know me outside of the podcast. And certainly some of them do listen to podcasts, but a lot of them don't. So, yeah, that's something that I think about a lot. And I'm really careful about in my life. And one of the ways that I had approached it intentionally was not revealing a lot about my personal life on the podcast. And sometimes I would talk to the guests a lot about things that were going on with me, and then I would cut it out of the show. And then sometimes I would allude to the fact that I had kind of cut a bunch of stuff out of the show. And people were like, leave it and leave it. Or like even my guests, like I would say like I'm gonna cut this out. But and they were like, don't cut this out, it's really important. And it was just me trying to protect myself as like a public figure in the world. But recently, I have experimented a little bit more with putting more of myself out there. Most recently, or most notably, I missed a week, I missed a week, last month where I tried to put a podcast out and I didn't get it done. And what I did instead was record like 15 minutes of talking about my personal life, and all the reasons that I couldn't get the podcast out. And like they all were connected to gender in some way, or I wouldn't have done it. But that was huge and really, really vulnerable for me. And it got a really, really big response, like a really positive response. And I felt really supported and I felt really felt really cared for. And when I am running late on the show, or not giving it as much time as I want to people really show up and say, Hey, Molly, take care of yourself. Hey, Molly, sleep, sometimes. Hey Molly eat sometimes. Hey, Molly, rest, sometimes we'll be here and we're not going anywhere, if you're late on something, or you don't get everything done that you want to. And so really, in a lot of ways, the people who listen to the show and feel like they know me, show up for me in these really real ways, even if I don't know them, because they're like, here's five, they'll send me like, they're like, here's $8, go buy a cup of coffee. Then I'll be like, Oh, okay, can I donate that to my show? And they're like, no, you cannot donate it to the show, you have to go get yourself a snack. And I'm like, ah, so that's been really incredible, actually.
Alex Iantaffi:I know like taking care of ourselves, what's that right? And you know, and I say that with some shame given them. It's like, I'm always working on self care. And then I'm like, I'm doing great. And my family, my household just looks at me and goes, no, that's like not self care. That's just really basic survival. I'm working so hard for them. That's what are you talking about? And yeah.
Molly Woodstock:Like, every time I have five minutes, instead of like reading a book or taking a nap, I just start a new project. So like Monday was Indigenous Peoples Day in the United States. And I just made a really innocuous Twitter, Twitter post about maybe it wasn't that innocuous. It was innocuous for me and extreme firesign about Indigenous Peoples Day, and it got too popular. And I started getting so many incredibly racist comments, which I normally don't get, like, I normally have a really good experience on Twitter. And so I was like, Okay, I'm going to raise money for queer and trans indigenous people and I want to raise at least $5 for every racist comment. And I ended up raising what are we at now like, $1,200, just from donations on Twitter, and I was going to donate it to an organization but I really believe in like direct giving. So I was like, Okay, what I'm actually going to do is ask queer and trans and Two Spirit indigenous people to share their Pay Pal and cash app with me. And I sent out $1,000 or $5-$10 at a time. And that's all I did for two days. And it's like, I felt like I didn't have other things to do. It's just that I stopped everything I was doing for two days to raise $1,200 and then handed out $5 at a time, because that's the kind of person that I am so I need to calm down is what I'm saying.
Alex Iantaffi:You know, I went, that was one of the things I wanted to talk to you about actually because and I think it does come from having marginalized identities or certain experiences in the world. But one of the things I see you do is continuously putting back in the community, right? Whether it's the grant program that Gender Reveal does or what I saw you do on Twitter, around what was happening with Indigenous Peoples Days. And and that's the thing, right? When we become too popular, then there is this enforced vulnerability, where people who really want to attack trans and non binary folks can come at us, right, which is not awesome. But I wonder how much of that wanting to continuously kind of give back to community comes from your own kind of identity and experiences?
Molly Woodstock:Yeah, I think it's this weird, internalized, weird, but incredibly common, internalized shame around all of the passing privileges that I have. And all of that just privileges privileges that I have, like, so for example, like I'm queer, and I'm trans and both my mom's are Mexican. But I get read in the world, whether I want to or not as like a cis white lady. And also, I have a lot of economic privilege that is rooted in weird traumatic events happening to my family, but like, regardless, like I have a lot of economic privilege. And so I am a trans person who is more safe in the world than a lot of other trans people. I live in a state that has strong trans rights and trans protections legally. And I also have like a huge safety net at this point in my life. And I see people all around me both like literally in my own home, and outside of that in the world, who are really struggling to just meet the bare necessities, right, because so many trans people live in poverty, especially trans people of color, but really all trans people. And, you know, when I was sending out money to those queer, trans indigenous folks, I didn't make them tell me anything about their lives, I had theirs sent me their handle, and I would send them five or$10. And people wrote back and were like, 'Thank you, this is gonna help me eat today. And I was just like, oh, no, you need more than $5-$10?' And when I do the grants, you know, I last time we read 80 applications, and like, all 80 of those people, like deserved way more money than we could even give. And so I just think that as long as I have shelter, and food, and you know, my basic needs met, and like enough to, like, have a good time with my friends on the side, I don't need more money than that. And there's so many people who don't even have their basic needs met. And it's really, really hard to not want to give all of the time. And then just to be like I really committed to being really open about money. So like, just in the interest of transparency, like someone reached out the other day and said they wanted to donate $2,000 to Gender Reveal, which is wild, because the most we've ever received is like $50. You know, it's is just like, wow, that's like a really, really huge amount of money. And she was just like, 'oh, well, like, I'm like a senior and as senior engineer at this really fancy global company that I won't name and I make like$150,000 a year and like my co workers make like $200,000 a year or $300,000 a year'. And like, you know, you should be going after that. And that's the part where I get really frustrated, because I am making, you know, I'm about to take a huge pay cut, and I'm gonna be making like $20,000 a year, you know, so like the difference between $20,000 and $200,000. It's literally 10x. And like, the amount that I am dedicated to giving is not going to change, but it would be really, really nice to see people who have a lot more privileged than even I do to like, also be that committed to giving.
Alex Iantaffi:Absolutely, that's the conversation I have with like actually other folks in community all the time that it's often the folks who don't have as much as other folks who are the ones who are giving the most right. And I think somewhere there's even like research about this, that, that. And I wonder how much of that is kind of knowing, like being in community with other folks and other knowing from personal experiences. If one is brought up in poverty or from other people's experiences around us in community, the people are truly struggling to do things like pay their rent and keep a roof over their head if they even have one or like eating, you know, or being able to get to a doctor's appointment because they don't have bus money, you know, and I find that in community too that even you know, maybe like cis white gay men who are also part of my community, they ask things like, wow, why do you do all those things? Or why do you show up and, and I kind of want to say like, why don't you show up in the same way, you know, like what is it that about your experience that is not getting through that you cannot see what's actually going on in our broader trans and queer community and and kind of almost that wall of privilege. I don't know, I don't know if I have a better word for it. But this like this insulating, that happens in trans and queer communities where some folks somehow don't seem to be exposed to just how deep kind of the systemic oppression goes for some other folks. Am I making sense?
Molly Woodstock:And I think that's really, really true is that we compare ourselves to the people we're in community with. So I'm comparing myself to people who are like, have $15 in their bank account, right? And I'm just like, okay, well, I have a ton of privilege compared to these people are like, so like, even not just in financial terms, but like, my partner is also queer and trans and half Mexican, but they read or read societally, as like a queer and trans person of color. And I'm read societally as like a white lady. And so like, compared to them, I have a ton of privilege. But before that, I dated a cis white straight guy. And compared to him, I had no privilege and no one gave a shit about sorry, but no one cared about me. And so it's really like dynamic thing of like, when I was with him, I was constantly aware of how marginalized I was. And when I'm with my partner, now, I'm constantly aware of how privileged I am. And that it's, I'm the same person. So I think there's a lot of people who just like, they have so many privileges, but instead of comparing themselves to like, people in our community, or mine, they're comparing themselves to like, Elon Musk, right? And they're just like, well yeah, I'm not rich, I don't have privilege so.
Alex Iantaffi:Absolutely. And it's, it is so relational, right? Which, unsurprisingly, which kind of gender is as well, you know, I'm thinking about my own identity, you know, being read in a certain way. When I was presenting more femme, and, you know, partnered, maybe with other femme presenting people, and then being totally erased when I was presenting with, and maybe dating kind of more masculine people. And then kind of then looking more gay once I started presenting more masculine because of my partnerships, right? And our relation with this and fluid and how much depending on who I'm with, my gender gets read in different ways, which is always kind of very fascinating to me. Like, what are you reading in this situation right now? What sense are you trying to make of it? And I love what you describe that is so dynamic, right? And I think that's something that's hard for some people to get their head around that it's not like gender is this fixed thing that once you have it once and for all, you know, what's your identity, but you're also navigating a world where people are always gendering and racializing and making assumptions about our bodies in all sorts of ways. Yeah, yeah. And I wonder how that plays out for you as a journalist as well. Because often on Twitter, you talk also about kind of being an out trans journalist. And how that works for you as a journalist, and also as a speaker more generally, just out in the world doing this work of educating people on this topic.
Molly Woodstock:Yes. Let me think of how this plays out.
Alex Iantaffi:Sorry. I just threw 500 things at you.
Molly Woodstock:Yeah, I just feel like right now, the way my experience has been, recently as a journalist is really siloed. Like I've been doing a lot of like quiet editing, and I haven't been doing a lot of interacting as a journalist. But I have been doing a lot of interaction as like an expert source for other journalists, if that makes sense. Like when you are introducing melees, like I had vandalized the Washington Post, but I have, you know, quotes and interviews in the New York Times, NPR, Washington Post and Pacifica Chronicle, like all this stuff. And so I've been interacting with media a lot more lately, from the consultant side and the workshop leader side and the experts source side that I have actually like as a journalist, which is honestly frustrating to me, because a lot of the times the people that I'm consulting or giving workshops to or giving quotes to, not always like sometimes they're also non binary, but a lot of times they are cis people who don't know how to interact with trans people respectively. And there's been multiple times where I've been interviewed for really, really major national outlets, and then spent a lot of time crying, and a lot of time shaking and multiple days, pulling my, like, hidden contacts in like, I have like contacts at NPR and I've contacted the New York Times and like activating that and being like, please make sure I don't get misgendered and like, it shouldn't be the case that anytime I like obviously, it's a huge privilege for me to be able to go on national media and like I don't take that for granted but like it shouldn't be the case that anytime I do that, I'm putting myself at risk and I have to spend several days using my like, handy insider sources to like sneak in and make sure that they fix my pronouns right. Like that shouldn't because they're because I'm being interviewed about non binary gender all the time. And it's just so wild how many times I've been interviewed by non binary gender and then being misgendered in the piece.
Alex Iantaffi:Absolutely, and I think it was you tweeted something about, you know, like cis journalists talking about non binary folks kind of person who identifies, you know, that's like five sentences.
Molly Woodstock:Yeah that tweet had it has like 58,000 likes right now and I have it open. So it says trans reporter writing about a non binary person, they drink coffee cis reporter writing about that person, the person who prefers to identify as gender non binary despite being assigned female at birth, and who prefers the gender neutral pronouns, they and them drink coffee.
Alex Iantaffi:Right. And that's probably one of the worst thing that can happen when you're a trans or non binary. And you get interviewed by national media honestly.
Molly Woodstock:They responded to it with like the same two comments, which are like, and then the next line would be she drank coffee, and then the other like, and they would work in a dead name in there somewhere. And both those things are true, but I was confined by the limits of the, you know, tweet length. But yeah, I mean, it's true. It's like, How many times am I going to do interviews about literally about respecting non binary people, and then there'll be like, Miss Woodstock. She prefers the pronouns, they/them, I'm going to die.
Alex Iantaffi:And we're like, something went very wrong there. Well, and even when a journalist gets it completely, right, I don't know about your experience. But in my limited experience, then there's also all of the public comments that can happen, you know, so all of the that, often we can ignore them. But sometimes if we make the mistake of going to look at them, or somebody goes, Oh, look, you've been interviewed for this piece, and there are all these hateful comments, right? It kind of exposes you to just just the level of vulnerability publicly, that can be really scary as a trans person. And I don't know, if you've experienced, I mean, you've experienced, obviously, some of that just last Monday, but indigenous people there in terms of one aspect of your identity, but yes, I don't know if and I think that makes people hesitant to be more open sometimes about who they are. And I just wonder if you have anything to share with maybe trans folks who are more reluctant to be public, because they fear what might come at them if they're more public
Molly Woodstock:Yeah that makes total sense, I am really lucky about who they are. in that I don't receive typically a lot of negative comments, at least not that are visible to me. And when I do see them, they're pretty generic, like no one's so far, no one's like trying to dox me specifically, or trying to like harass me, in a targeted way, they're just sort of throwing all of their bigoted ideas about my identities in my general direction, but not really, to me, which is honestly incredibly lucky. I think that if trans people have the opportunity to be in the media, I wouldn't recommend it. Unless it's a trans journalist. The reason that I navigate it is one because that's like what I'm committed to doing in life. But also, I'm incredibly media trained from being a journalist. So I know how to navigate these things into like, really expert way. And even then sometimes it's really hard. So I honestly wouldn't recommend that trans people necessarily risk that if they're working with like a cisgender journalist, but just in life and like public space, yeah, you have to be really ready for a lot of negative comments to potentially come your way. But I will say that the more public you are, the more community you get, and where the support you get, also, because people don't know, to support you, unless you're out there and something that I hear on the gender reveal slack. And generally, in the gender of your comments all the time, are people saying, Hey, I'm not out at work? How can I get people to stop misgendering me without coming out? They're like, what? Like, yeah, so I'm, I'm not a woman, but I'm assigned female at birth. And so how do I get people to stop calling me a woman without telling them I'm trans? And I'm like, Nope. You know, it's been, it's hard, like, I understand that impulse. But like, you can't have it both ways. Unfortunately, I wish that you could. And so like, part of coming out is really scary. But I think that generally like, the more space you take up, you're still going to get or at least I hope that you're still going to get like 80 to 90% positive comments that you weren't going to get if you didn't put yourself forward. So yeah, it's just whether you're like willing to risk it for the 10% of comments that might suck.
Alex Iantaffi:Absolutely. And I think sometimes, at least in my experience, and I could be wrong, but it's the folks who tend to have more suicidal privilege, where it might be scarier to lose some of that suicidal privilege and to kind of be the attack but and I really love what you said that there needs to be a certain level of media savvy. And in my limited interactions with the media as the ex academic and independent scholar that is so true. So if there are trans folks who are into interfacing with the media for other reasons, maybe because of their expertise or their job, kind of what tips would you give them as a trans journalist when they're into interfacing with like other kind of journalists and or media folks?
Molly Woodstock:Yeah, I know, it's really hard because I've been so clear and still been misgendered or still been treated poorly, like, at some point, like, you just have to release control to that other person. But I would say just do everything you can to make sure that you're going to be at least gendered correctly and like named correctly and don't be afraid to like be really insistent on it. So like when I was on National Public Radio a few weeks ago, and I was misgendered a bazillion times when we were recording, I asked the host like, Hey, can you make sure that I don't get misgendered? And the final version, and that she was like, No, I think we got it. And I was like, huh, so I went to the producer and was like, Hey, can you make sure I'm not misgendered at the final version? And she's like, No, I think we got it. And I was like, Hey, you didn't it get it? Can you promise me? I don't know if this is your job. But like can you promise me that whoever is in charge of making this show, will make sure that I don't get misgendered in the final edit. And she was just like, Okay, I'm here, my editors here. And we promised you and I was like, okay, and then I followed up on email. And she was like, yep, for like, you know, in print, like, I promise, I will make sure that whatever happens, you won't get misgendered. And then it worked. But like I had to ask like six different times. And I had to show up for myself when I was like, having a really terrible experience, you know? And so, like, you can't, you can't guarantee and even when I was, you know, ultimately gendered correctly, the way that I was introduced was really what inspired that tweet, because I was introduced as Molly identifies as non binary and uses the pronoun they and there's, and like, what I would like to be introduced as is'Molly is a journalist'. Or like, they're a journalist. They're a non binary journalist. And so like, I still felt like an alien from outer space. And like, the producer reached out to me later and was like, how was it? And I was like, well, thanks for not misgendering me, I felt like an alien from outer space. And here's why. And she was like, oh, yeah, there was like a big argument in the studio about how to handle that. And I guess we should have just asked you, but we were embarrassed to admit that we didn't know what to do. And like that comes back to like why I'm so frustrated as a trans journalist, and like, why I'm so frustrated that I haven't been doing journalism lately, is that people, cis people keep putting out terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible content about trans people. And like, I know, so many trans journalists, I know, hundreds of them, and I'm one of them. And we're not getting hired, right? And so like, why aren't we getting hired to make the content about trans journalists? Why are you hiring people that literally don't know any trans people to do this? It makes no sense. And your stories are suffering, because you are assigning people who don't know what they're talking about. And like, we're here, ready for you to hire us.
Alex Iantaffi:Right? And people don't even think about it after the time. And that was actually going to be my follow up question, which was, you know, is there a place also for people to push back and go, Hey, you're interviewing me about this story. And it's about trends and a minor issues and I would like to respectfully ask you about your identity. And why is the transit and or non binary journalist not covering this if you're a cis person right? And I think we need to start doing that more and more, because there's always this assumption that there isn't somebody qualified in our community and that's just a lie. Right?
Molly Woodstock:Absolutely.
Alex Iantaffi:It's just, it's like, we are everywhere. And we have so much expertise in so many different fields. And, and I've had really bizarre things happening, like somebody organizing a conference and asking me about in inviting the cis white men to talk about gender, because they wanted somebody with a book about gender. And I was like, so literally, you're asking me because I'm trans but I also have a book about gender and I'm a therapist. And I'm like a trauma, like, I fit all these things that you're asking for. But you are just assuming because I'm trans. I don't even exist, even though we're having this conversation. It's bizarre, just bizarre, right?
Molly Woodstock:Yeah and super wild. So I, speaking of like, pushing back on that one, I was being interviewed a different time for NPR. And the person who was interviewing me was like,'Oh, I'm not excited for the comments on this one, like the internet comments', and I was like, 'Oh are you trans?' And he was just like, 'oh, no, but I'm an ally'. And I just laughed out loud and said, you don't get to decide that. And he got so flustered and so freaked out. And I was just like, yeah, we get to decide whether you're being an ally or not. You don't get to just tell me you're an ally.
Alex Iantaffi:And so basically, yeah, exactly. The real question is, why is NPR not hiring you to cover those stories?
Molly Woodstock:Great question. It's because I have political opinions. I talked about that a lot on the episode I just put out of gender fuel with Lewis Raven Wallace, who just put out podcasting is in the book because Lewis for your listeners, Lewis worked at NPR and was the only openly trans person at NPR and then was fired for having political opinions and for saying that objectivity as we think of it as fake. And so that's the same problem as me, right? It's like I actually have opinions, and I don't hide them. And so I'll never be able to work with National Public Radio because I will not ever play the game where I pretend that I don't have opinions.
Alex Iantaffi:Exactly. Which is a weird, bizarre game, too, because people have opinions all the time. It's just somehow when those opinions intersect with our identity or right to just exist without being questioned every five minutes, then it becomes a hot political topic. I'm not sure why. Well, I know why but there you go.
Molly Woodstock:It's, you know, it's really obvious, but really interesting, like, what, what's politicized, right, because like, I have a shirt that says, every billionaire is bad. And my partner was like, Oh, I can't wear like political shirts to work. And I was like, oh, but this shirt isn't political. It just says every billionaire is bad. They're like, that's political, to the people that I work with. And I was like, oh, so like, it just like defends or like, you know, even like, trans people existing is political to some people, right? So like, how can I ever get away from politics when I'm trans? Or how can I ever get away from politics when I'm queer? So I just refuse to play that game and, like, swallow those parts of me, just for the sake of like getting a job working for people who don't think that I should exist.
Alex Iantaffi:Exactly. And, and I think that's true for folks with all sorts of marginalized identities, right? It's like a mentor, or one's kind of made the comment that I should get kind of more diction lessons because I have an accent, right? And I'm operating in an English context, right? And she was having such a hard time understanding why that statement was like really xenophobic, and really problematic, you know? And I'm like, yeah, it's actually like, yes, it's problematic. And this is why let me break it down to you. And, and I think people don't even realize that their lives and their comments are also political. But somehow when we exist in this space, where people don't expect us to exist that and especially with the certain level of expertise, or insaan, it becomes such an issue. Right? And it's, yeah, fascinating. So I am curious about how much do you think podcasts give the opportunity for voices like yours and like mine, and a lot of other guests that we have on the show, to kind of talk about things that maybe are not so palatable. I was trying to look for more than I remember, my my friend Jay Shree talks about being palatable minorities. So you know, maybe we're not being palatable minorities. So do podcasts give opportunity for people to be less palatable minorities?
Molly Woodstock:I think they do but I think that the podcasts that I are more palatable, are always the ones that are going to be given the resources and the awards and the opportunities, right, because they're more palatable to a wider audience, like, I will openly tell cis, people who are arguing with me, like, they'll be like, I'm a cis ally so you can't critique me. And I'll be like, I actually don't care about maintaining you as an ally. Like, my job is to like, look out for trans people and make things that support trans people. And if I learned to, like, I don't care. And like you know, so like, I could alienate a ton of cis people that way, who might otherwise like, donate to the show, or I could alienate networks who might otherwise be interested, because like, our tastes are too spicy, or whatever. And so, yeah, I think that it creates a platform, but I still think that, you know, I'm entirely as your as well, I'm sure I'm entirely independently funded, like 100% of our money comes through Patreon and PayPal. I don't sell ads, because I tried for a minute. And I was like, Oh, this doesn't work. Because this reading, it wasn't just like, you have to read the ads. It was like, you have to read the ads in a way that people buy our products. And I was like, my listeners are trans. They don't have money for $45 underwear. Like, no one has that money. And so I was like, okay, like, no more ads, because it requires trans people to spend money they don't have on products that cost too much. And instead, if you have $1 sent to the show every month, that's great. And if not, no worries. Yeah. So I think just as someone who's like really involved in the radio world, I see so much of the politics that go along in that and like the respectability politics that go along in that and I have really, really strong trans community and radio who I feel very lucky to be a part of, because we're all sort of pushing back against that in different ways but it's a hugely uphill battle.
Alex Iantaffi:Absolutely. And I love what you said that, yes, you know, podcasts might still give you a platform. Yeah. And my podcast is also 100% self funded. And then people are like, please at least do a Patreon. So we can, like, pay what you're putting out to make the podcast because we, you know, it's again, it's like what comes in goes out, and as long as I have enough that that's good. And that even if there is a platform is not necessarily the same platform that people are gonna listen to, right? People are going to always going to be much more likely to listen to people who don't make them uncomfortable, right?
Molly Woodstock:Yeah, and people who they have more in common with like, I just worry that, I mean, like, I don't, I don't make the show cis people. But I do want those people to listen to it so that they learned something. And, you know, it's so easy as a cis person to be like, well, this isn't for me, so I'm not going to engage with it. Right? It's like, Yeah, but the whole point is to like, get you out of your comfort zone and learn things about folks that you haven't heard from before. That's literally the entire point. The point isn't just to talk to trans people, even though I love trans people, and I will make the show for trans people forever.
Alex Iantaffi:And then it's fascinating, because even when, like my show is like for people of all genders and I make that very clear. And then when I'm, when I'm interviewing cis people, they're like, Are you sure you want to talk to me? And I was like, Yeah, that's the whole point that really want everybody to think critically about gender. And I actually want a model or you can talk about gender to a cis person okay. But there is almost it's like, you can't win, right? Like, in some ways your show gets viewed in a certain way. And in another way, because I'm trans then people just assume that the only people I want to talk to are on the other trans and non binary people. And I'm like, no, I want you all to think about gender all the time, like, because....
Molly Woodstock:So yeah, and there's something fun about asking cis people the questions that we ask trans people, right? Like, it's like, oh, how do you know you're a girl?
Alex Iantaffi:Or, yeah, exactly. Or what do you think your work interfaces for gender, which it does all the time, right? How can you not? And I really appreciate this with cis folks where like, Yep, I can talk to you about this and make myself vulnerable. And some of them might never have thought about gender in this way in relation to their work. And it's fascinating to me, because I'm like, how do you not think about gender all the time?
Molly Woodstock:Yeah, totally. Well, I was leading, because I lead workshops, and I was leading this workshop for, like, 60 educators. And I forget the question, but it was essentially like, can you talk about a time in which like, you struggle to like fit in to your assigned gender. And it was like, it was like, mostly cis people. It's like cis people. And I forget the exact question, but I just remember walking around the room and hearing everyone say, like, oh, yeah, I remember when I was a kid, and like, I didn't fit in this way. Or like, at this time, when I didn't fit in this way. This didn't fit in this way. And then after everyone talked about that, for like, 10 minutes, I was like, Okay, can you raise your hand if you describe an experience of you not conforming strictly to your gender? And like four people raise their hands. And I was like, No, you You all did, you will just do it, I just heard you. But like, since people don't want to cop to the fact that like they don't, you know, conform to their gender 100% of the time because then they have to question everything they've ever known. So I'm just like, okay.
Alex Iantaffi:Right but that is so true. Whenever I do training, I have had the same experience, which is why that's how to understand your gender came about which is really versus people. People keep thinking that's for trans people. And I'm like, No, give it to your cis relative. Really? I mean, you might trans and non binary people have enjoyed it, too. But I was like, No, really, it's for cis folks. And I think it is because gender gets policed so rigidly right, which then goes back to the gender as part that rigid gender binary is part of this ongoing settler colonial project, because it's about controlling bodies, right, in this weird, tight way. And, and people don't want to, like, say that, actually, I do have a certain level of discomfort to find that that's changing generationally. Like I'm making assumptions from your existing line that you're like, way younger than I am, like, I'm 48 and I find that a lot of folks in content creators and podcasters are generally like 20 years or so younger than I am. And it seems like it's changing, you know, and I'm a parent of a teenager and in their generation, she's 15. You know, I don't know, but I think there was a study like 1/3 of our generation identifies outside of the gender binary. Do you think that there is a generational shift in people being more comfortable in not fitting into societal gender norms at all or?
Molly Woodstock:Yeah, I really, really do. You know, particularly here, right? Because like every culture has their own situation, but here in the United States, there are now children who are in elementary school, middle school, who are you know, identifying your gender non conforming and gender creative and trans and non binary. And like, I think that's always been true. But what I think is different now is that there are systems to support them. And there are like communities where a bunch of gender creative kids hang out together. And there are parents who are like, really, really invested in like making sure that their kid is respected and accommodated and advocated for. And like, that's something that's so unrelatable to me. And having the concept of their, they're just I've met parents who are like, Yeah, my kids trans, and I'm doing everything I possibly can to make sure that my kid has like, the easiest possible life as a trans kid that I'm talking to their teachers, and I'm talking to their whatever. And like, that's so unrelatable to me, and it's so incredible, and it is so moving. And like how could we not believe that it's gonna get better for trans folks, when we see these kids who are eight and who are, you know, experimenting with different identities or different pronouns, or who are not worrying about what their gender role is supposed to be? And like just being themselves? It's and I know that like, that's not true, and 100% of places are 100% of kids, and there are still kids who will like police the gender binary, like really strictly. And their parents, of course, there are so many parents who are not that supportive I am, I get really frustrated, because sometimes people say like, oh, everything's better now. And I'm like, no, there are kids who are there still, like 40% of homeless youth are LGBTQ. Right. So like, it's not like, everyone's great. But the fact that literally anyone is having a good time as a trans kid is like, really incredible to me. And so I do think and like when I, my standards for being misgendered are really different generationally, like when I meet someone who's my age or younger, I like really expect them to know what they/them pronouns are and to get it right. And when I'm talking to someone who's in their 50s, or 60s, like I don't assume that they know what that means. You know, sometimes they do, but...
Alex Iantaffi:Which is fascinating, too, right? Because so much was also dominant culture. I didn't know somebody a while ago at this tweet the about, you know, boomers don't know how to say cis hat, but they can explain some I don't know something about financial... And I was like, I was like, well, I'm not quite a boomer, at 48. But I know plenty of boomers who could totally say it's a settler normative and also like talking about the patriarchy. And I think partially is that we have lost so much intergenerational community, in trans and queer community because of the HIV crisis. And I feel like that could be all other kind of episode but something I feel really strongly about that the there's been this disruption of the healthy intergenerational community, for trans and queer folks. And it's almost like, you know, people had to almost reinvent the wheel, because so many adults and elders either died or were grieving, or, you know, what had happened kind of in the 80s. And I don't know if that's something that ever comes up. Yeah, for you and your own community as well, around that.
Molly Woodstock:Yeah, it's interesting, because I think the conversations that I have with people who are roughly my age, which is like late 20s, early 30s, are, they're really different based on gender assigned at birth. Because I think people who thought of themselves as gay men for a long time were like, hyper aware of the HIV crisis, even if it was like before their time, and folks who were raised, like, as girls, basically people who are assigned female at birth, and then like, grew up thinking of themselves as girls for a while, like, didn't really interface with it in any way. Because we were told like this is for gay men. And so, yeah, so that's like two different experiences. But I think in my community, we sort of never touch it. And then when we do touch it, it's to be like, Oh, my gosh, there's this whole generation that we're never going to meet, how can we commit? Like, how can we connect with queer elders? We need to connect with queer elders, and then we don't? Because we don't know how. And so like, Yeah, I mean, like, I really appreciate getting to talk to you. And like, I've had like, really important feedback from people who listen to my podcasts or like, you're really not speaking. Like, we're listening. And we're like, 40, and 50, and 60 year old trans people and like, you're not speaking to us. And I'm like, Yeah, you're right. I'm completely fucking up. And the reason is that I don't get to talk to queer elders, like ever. Like, I don't know, trans people, I shouldn't say no, but like, I'm not in community with trans people who are older than like, 35 or 40. I guess, actually, that's not true. You know, my trans people, everyone looks really young. Like, that's actually not true. But like, I mean, like, I think my older, like my oldest trans friends are like in their 40s. But they're still coming from like a really different place than like the folks who were really heavily impacted by the HIV crisis. And I would love, love, love, love, love to figure out a way to like connect those two communities more and I don't know how to do it yet. So if you do, I'm open to it.
Alex Iantaffi:We should totally talk I do, I have so many ideas. And I think that also, it's been interesting to see how generations impact each other, right? If I think about one of my close folks whose in her 60s and uses a different pronoun, and per use to identify as, like third gender, that's more the language that per used. And now with this, like non binary umbrella, there's almost like a permission that a lot of folks feel to be seen and be themselves and, but also a lot of frustration that are varied from kind of elders of we've tried to communicate this again and again, and we've been erased again and again. And then even sometimes young folks do it. Right. I was in this conflict where this non binary person was talking to this elder about their male privilege, when they were both non binary people. And I was like, yes, absolutely. And then there were other complicated things going on. And my heart was just breaking, you know what I mean? And I was like, what is happening here? This is so much of societal trauma in this tiny interaction, right, that is so charged, and the ways in which we police even each other, or we think we see other people, but we don't really but we don't really, you know, what I mean? Am I making sense?
Molly Woodstock:So it's, I think it's just, it's hard. Because, I mean, it's hard for a lot of different reasons. But I think I definitely, like have an assumption in my brain that when folks are significantly older than me, they don't know as much about trans stuff or don't respect trans identity as much as younger folks, and that comes from that being my lived experience. But that doesn't mean that it's universally true, you know, and so like, I would really, really love to build that more. And that's something that I'm like, trying to work on, more. So I appreciate you talking to me about it. And I think that, you know, I read the entire deck. So watch out for a compilation, and I was like, Oh, this is from 1989. And this is exactly my life. Like nothing changes, like we've all like have gone through the same things. And we would be so much stronger if like we the younger generation, and also folks younger than me, were able to learn from folks who had been fighting this fight for like, 40 years, 50 years beyond. And, yeah, I would love to figure out ways to, like have more access to that and like be able to, like, really show those folks like the respect that they deserve and the honor that they deserve.
Alex Iantaffi:Absolutely and I think that's another way that we resist that dominant culture, right to really reclaim our own communities. I know that we do have elders, we do have, you know, ancestors, and we do have this strong connection in community across generations. Oh, I feel like I could talk to you, like an hour or two or three. I don't know. But I want to be respectful of your time. So I'm gonna go to my classic last question, which is, is there anything I haven't asked you about that you're really, I really wanted to talk about and that we missed?
Molly Woodstock:Yeah, I also asked that question. It's a good one. Um, I don't think so. Yeah, there's nothing like off the top of my head. No, I think we're good. I really, really enjoyed talking to you and yeah.
Alex Iantaffi:I really enjoyed talking to you, too. Yes. And I think I'm really curious. I was like, what was happening in the stars that because I started my podcasts in very early 2018. And I think it was yes, it was, it was that time where I was also looking around and going, what, where's the content by like, transgender, non binary people? And then your podcasts also pop out. And I was like, Yes. And you. I don't know how you do it with the weekly episodes. But I was like, what was in the stars between the shift of 2017-2018 that brought all this amazing content out?
Molly Woodstock:Yeah, that is what I would say if I had one thing to say is just to like, really show up for independent media that you care about me to, to listener show up from independent media that you care about, because when I was starting my podcast, I was like, hey, who knows any queer trans podcast, I'm like, no one knew a single podcast about gender. And I researched it so much. I couldn't find any podcasts about gender. And then since I've been making the show, I found a zillion podcasts about gender and like they're just not out there. So I think like, getting the word out about the media that you care about and showing up for them whatever way you can is, like so important because we don't have like marketing budgets, you know, we're not gonna get like institutional support. So really all we have is each other.
Alex Iantaffi:That is very real. I mean, what budget but all we have is each other and you do have an amazing shirt that people can buy that says support trans media. I bought two, one for me and one for my non binary partner, who produces the show. So where can people find like your merchandise or find your podcast basically like call to action? Where can people find you if they want to hire you?
Molly Woodstock:Yeah, so there's a lot so I'm on Twitter and Instagram at Molly Woodstock. The podcast is on Twitter and Instagram at Gender Reveal. I'm at Mollywoodstock.com. The podcast is at genderpodcast.com. But then you can also listen to the show gender reveal in whatever app you use to listen to your podcast. So find us wherever and we're around. And then the merch is at bit.li/gendermerch, I get really good handles because apparently no one's ever done anything with gender before. So we have a rotating selection of like T shirts, stickers, bags, and all of it is designed by trans people. And then I don't make any money off the store because I'm allergic to ever paying myself. And so half of the money goes to the designer and then the other half of the money goes to like a LGBTQ nonprofit that the designer chooses. So like the support transmedia shirt is designed by Beth Easton, who's like a wonderful young trans person in the UK, and then half the proceeds proceeds go to Beth and half the proceeds go to gendered intelligence, which is like a UK org for trans kids or trans adults. I don't know trans people.
Alex Iantaffi:Yeah it's children youth I'm pretty sure and but they're amazing. They're, they're really good.
Molly Woodstock:They're really good and so yeah, so there's all sorts of stuff and then it's always rotating out like every few weeks we have more stuff to buy if you want to just throw your money at like trans merch and who doesn't.
Alex Iantaffi:I mean, I say for your money for your support, especially purists, this listener to like us transgender or non binary creators do it. You know, buy our merch, listen to our podcast, buy my book.
Molly Woodstock:And then also, I guess last thing, if you're just throwing money at things is that way are at patreon.com/gender. Again, I'm incredible handle. So if you want to throw some money per month so that I can quit my job or whatever patreon.com/gender.
Alex Iantaffi:Do it. It's I think it's really important to support trans and non binary creator, I was gonna say don't forget your Patreon as well. And yes, please, dear listeners support this. And if you are like, especially if you're bipoc person who does need support to do more amazing thing, check out the grant program as well, that gender reveal does and you know, get in touch so we can amplify your voices as well. I'm pretty sure Molly and I are kind of under the same train of like supporting and lifting each other up as trans and non binary, folks. So yeah, and thank you for listening. And thank you Molly, for this amazing time. I feel like I've just spent, I don't know an hour just having fun.
Molly Woodstock:I was I was talking to you and listening very diligently. But also my roommate and best friend is a queer, trans, indigenous therapist. And so I was like texting them and being like a cool trans therapist, check them out.
Alex Iantaffi:It's true. It's a small world, and we need to look out for each other. Sometimes I get teased that I've like supervised every trans or non binary family therapist request. And I was like, that's probably true in the last few years and I will do my best to keep mentoring people to come in the field because we need to take over everything therapy, you know, the media, like trans takeover, right?
Molly Woodstock:But um, yeah, I mean, we, you know, even in Portland where everyone's trans, there's like five trans therapists, and we all like pass them around. And then we have to give up and like I had this big famously on Twitter, where I was going to a trans therapist, who was two in my community, and we ended up we kept dating the same people accidentally, and I was like, I have to stop. And I went in to like a cis straight white lady because it was just like, I can't engage with this anymore. So
Alex Iantaffi:This is too real. And Portland is very similar to Minneapolis in some weird ways. And it's the same here. It's like there are so many trans folks and yet so few folks with other resources, or in kind of leadership, right, like the Twin Cities doesn't even have an LGBTQ Center, Minnesota Trans Health Coalition and rare productions, I think are the only organizations that are led by actually transgender or non binary bipoc folks. It's just astonishing to me that there can be so many of us and yet so few resources thrown in our direction so please support Gender Reveal in all the ways that we've already told you when we were wrapping up the show but not quite already. So thank you so much, Molly, and thank you Gender Stories listeners for listening to another episode. Go out there and support transmedia and thank you for listening.