Queering Sex Therapy with Dr Dulcinea Alex Pitagora

Drs Dulcinea Alex Pitagora and Alex Iantaffi discuss academic journeys, the complexities of aging as a queer person, and the importance of community and intergenerational connections. They discuss the challenges faced by the queer and trans communities in the current socio-political climate, the experience of being an openly queer therapist, and the impact of capitalism on mental health, while emphasizing the need for self-compassion, joy, and connection in navigating it all. 

Dr. Dulcinea/Alex Pitagora is a NY-based psychotherapist and sex therapist (also licensed in NJ, PA, and CO). They have a brick-and-mortar private practice in NYC that includes individual, couples/multi-partner relationship, and poly/leather family therapy, as well as supervision and mentorship. Dr. Pitagora is an out and proud member of the queer, trans, kink, and polyamory communities, and is equally proud to be a former sex worker, as well as an anti-racist/-oppression/-exploitation activist. Dr. Pitagora holds a Master of Arts in Psychology from the New School for Social Research; a Master of Social Work from New York University; a Master of Education and a Doctorate in Clinical Sexology from Widener University; and is an AASECT Certified Sex Therapist, CST Supervisor, and CE provider along with their colleague Dr. Jillien Kahn. Dr. Pitagora teaches sexual health at New York University; has published articles and chapters in peer-reviewed journals and books; and presented at conferences on the topics of alternative sexuality and gender diversity. Dr. Pitagora is the founder of ManhattanAlternative.com, a nationwide alternative lifestyle affirmative provider listing; and was a co-founder and -organizer of the AltSex NYC Conference. 

Find out more about Dr Dulcinea’s work at the following links: 

https://www.dulcineapitagora.com/ 
https://kinkdoctor.com/ 
@kinkdoctor 

Instagram: GenderStories
Hosted by Alex Iantaffi
Music by Maxwell von Raven
Gender Stories logo by Lior Effinger-Weintraub

Transcript

0:35

Hello and welcome to another episode of Gender Stories. I know I'm always thrilled and delighted, but that's because I get to talk to some really cool people. And today I have the pleasure of introducing a colleague, Dr. Dulcinea Alex Pitagora, who is a New York based psychotherapist and sex therapist who's also licensed in New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Colorado. They have a brick and mortar private practice in New York City that includes individual. couples, multi-partner relationships, and poly leather family therapy, as well as supervision and mentorship. Dr. Pitagora is an out and proud member of the queer, trans, kink, and polyamory communities, and is equally proud to be a former sex worker, as well as an anti-racist, anti-oppression, anti-exploitation activist. Dr. Pitagora holds a Master of Arts in Psychology. from the New School of Social Research, a Master of Social Work from New York University, a Master of Education and a Doctor in Clinical Sexology from Widener University, and is an ASIC-certified sex therapist, sex therapist supervisor, and continuing education provider, along with their colleague, Dr. Julian Kahn. Dr. Pidagora teaches sexual health at New York University and has published articles and chapters in peer-reviewed journals and books. They have presented at conferences on the topics of alternative sexuality and gender diversity. Dr. Pitagora is the founder of manadanalternative.com, a nationwide alternative lifestyle affirmative provider listing, and was a co-founder and organizer of the All Sex NYC conference. You can find out more about their work at their website or follow them on social media. And all those links are going to be in the episode description as usual. Welcome, Dr. Dulcinea. I am so excited that we get to talk for gender stories. Thank you for making time for this. I love it. Thank you for having me. I was excited to be invited. My pleasure. One of the cool things about being a sex therapist is I got to meet so many wonderful colleagues. You're included during this work and I really love that. I also love the reading your bios. Like somebody else who loves education just like I do and wasn't that the linear path because my educational path wasn't very linear either. So I'm curious about what kind of drove you from master to master to masters. program. I'm kind of a little bit curious if you feel like sharing. it is very curious. It was not intentional. um I have a mountainous student loan debt to show for it. And that's fine. It's one of those things I'm just like, oh, well, you know, because I couldn't afford any of them. That was fine. I wanted to do those. I was an older student, so I had dropped out of undergrad and then finished it in my... late 30s, took a break, then went to grad school, was finally ready for grad school in my 40s. So I didn't even start all of those like post grad, you know, grad school until my till age 40 or around. I forget exactly. I'm in my 50s now. I'm about to be 55, which is blowing my mind. But anyway, that's great. I am. Yeah. So I started out in general psychology, which was an interest of mine. And the new school was I liked their branding. uh Academia is like, I have sort of this love hate relationship and the love part being like, I'm super interested in all these topics and I love their research and I love to read and I love learning about stuff. I like to write. uh So that makes it, that's the good part. And then the other part is the part I don't like, which is the. the accessibility part, the part where it's like actually institutions will say they're progressive and like, are they really? So I learned about that along the way, um especially given my areas of expertise, which I knew, especially being an older student or like an old, know, going back to school later and like, I'm ready to like train, do training for, to be a sex therapist. I knew exactly that I wanted to work in these populations. um And I found out who was gonna support that and who wasn't, you know, along the way. So I loved going, I loved the first master's very, it was really hard, very rigorous, which was awesome and really set me up well for the rest of it. And then I found like, oh, actually social work is the correct place for me to get my license for practicing just according to like what I learned about myself and the field and everything. and how long it would take me to start practicing and where I could do it and all of this. And so then I did that, but I still wanted to get a PhD, because initially I was like, I want to get a PhD. And I love to be very straightforward about things. And I will say that I knew that I was going to be out about, it's very important to me to be out about all of my different identities. Even if I don't go into detail about my personal life, I like to like. people that know my social location, who I am, and all the things that you read off of my email. And I don't come from any kind of very much upbringing that gave me the confidence to not have the internalized stigma from those things. And I think even if you do, we internalize that anyway. And so I'm like, well, you know what? like. school, like I'm gonna get as many letters as I can and that's gonna make me feel like somebody has to take me seriously. Like in hindsight, I know that that's not really, like you don't need PhD to be taken seriously except by some people you do. Exactly. It depends on the setting up 100%. And honestly, it does feel protective to me because of the kind of work I do. And like, I'm somewhat outspoken about this kind of work that I do and who I am and the people that I work with. so it does, I, you know, anyway, so I was always going to do that. And then I did the social work, started working and it was like, started my PhD. And the other third master's is just a gift with purchase that comes with your PhD. It's the master of education, which is great. Like it was specifically about how to teach about sexuality and about, you and that's worked out really well because I am doing super, that's really helpful for supervision. teach, you know, so all useful stuff. And would I do it again that way? I don't know. Like I don't, I don't actually do the revisionist. I try to not to do that with regrets or anything. I don't like that. It's fine. I will never pay these student loans off. I will definitely die first. And that's great because then they don't, you know, the banks aren't going to get out. So anyway, that's what I have to say about academia. Oh my God. I love, I actually love all of that. was like, oh my God, we could do the episode just talking about those things. mean, there are other things I would ask you about, but I saw it related to so much of what you said. The love hate with academia. was in academia for like 20 years because, know, um, I was not brought up, uh, you know, in an academic, in an environment where people had masters or PhD. mean, my parents got their first degree while I was like a teenager, you know, they went back to school to get their undergrad. Um, that because I was smart in air quotes and I put it in air quotes because what does that even mean? Like I was like effective in school. Exactly. I was effective at schooling. I would say somewhat. uh That's also an interesting story because it's like I wasn't, and then I was, if that makes sense. In middle school, people, teachers were like, you shouldn't even go to college. And then in high school, I just like flourished, you know, for lots of different reasons. But anyway, I really relate to the like love hate of academia, like things that I feel like things I really love is like the engagement with ideas and knowledge, but then the reality is that you're engaging with systems that are not really supportive of a lot of our social locations, positions, communities, and that's disheartening to say the least. honestly, their capitalism is their priority, not learning. I have to say that's people all learn. And sure, learning is really important, and particularly depending on who your professor is. anyway, we don't have to go off on that. But it's all the gatekeeping and all, well, they have to get their funding. we're seeing so much of that politically right now, too, which we may or may not want to We can talk about politics, we can talk about whatever we want. I mean, it's my podcast. We can. I love it. Yes, whatever you want. I'll talk about whatever you want. Like, I'm not gonna talk about beauty of this being a labor of love is that we get to talk about whatever we want. there's like, you know, it's not like I'm in a network of this, any oversight or anything. We get to talk about whatever we want. And then people either want to listen to it or not. That's up to them, but we get to share whatever we want. that is the beauty of it. Like, you can like look away or you can like be like, I don't want to hear it. You can just like not do that thing. You don't have to like, anyway. Oh, absolutely. We might, we might go back to that point. I also love, I didn't realize that we were so close in age. I turned 54 this year. I've actually found you're much younger than I am. It's just, it's just a good looks. can I say? Um, you know, it's like has trans people, it's hard to pinpoint us with age. I have the filter. I don't think it's just a filter, but I love that you said like, it's almost a surprise. I felt that in my body, like, because when I realized, I'm like, my God, I'm approaching my mid-50s as a queer person, as a trans person once I figured out my gender identity too, in a way where I words for it. In a way, does feel alien to be like in my mid-50s, especially being brought up in the 70s and 80s where like, you know. being gay, well, definitely a lot of ways, the coming of age during the beginning of the AIDS epidemic, I should say, because it's still going on in a lot of different ways, kind of just didn't really give me a vision for the future as in being an adult in my 50s or thinking about aging. And I don't know if you can relate to any of that or what was your feeling about like, oh, yeah, I'm almost 55 kind of thing. No, yeah, it's so weird. I mean, I'll say something very, very dark and honest is like I didn't expect to get this far. I didn't grow up in a way that indicated I would be able to last much past my 20s. But so like, yeah, great. And then of course, I happen to take hormones. And for people who do, sometimes you get an extra puberty, which I hear gives you like 15 more years. I don't know, that was what I heard. Anyway, I made that up. Extra puberty, extra 15 years, that's my math. not very, anyway, I didn't put it on the spreadsheet yet. So there's that. yeah, it's really interesting because feeling age is because of that, because of shifts in identity. then I've had so many different Like my current career, my current job has been the last 10, like 12 years, something like that. And I've had multiple other lives before that. And so it's just, it's really weird. Yeah, I'm going to be 55 and it feels really weird. And I mean, it feels good. feel like I'm lucky to like feel like pretty healthy and like, and all of that. But like, we're, we're kind of, I don't want to speak for you, but like, I feel like in our 50s, like a lot of trans folks start becoming elders in the community, which is like, I'll say another dark thing, why not? I love to be, I'm like, I'm secretly a goth. um But yeah, 50s, 60s, that is elder in the trans community. for a lot of, like, there's a lot of people that don't make it too much. Now there's certainly people much older than that. Like I'm very... happy to know em Kate Bornstein is so lovely. she is still like, when I see her, we have our elders, but it's And yeah, I'm so grateful. So it's interesting to think about that too. em I don't know. Anyway, that's what. No, I think that's really interesting. And I don't think any of those things are dark, but then maybe that's because I was brought up in Italy and especially very influenced in terms of Sicilian identity and culture from my grandma who brought me up in a lot of ways as my main kind of childcare provider. And it's like, yeah, we talk about life and death, right? And it's like, it doesn't feel as some topic that needs to be avoided. Like sometimes it can feel like in the so-called US. You can say whatever you want, like I said, and it doesn't bother me. And I need so relate too. Like I didn't think I'd be this old and I didn't think I would have the amazing life, quite frankly, that feel I have even though the world is burning. I have so much love in my life from my partners, from my kids, community, because growing up, at least for me in the seventies and eighties, it was like, if you're queer, you're like, you're alone and you're sad. And that has not been my experience at all. You know, and it is true that there is a side where you're seen as an elder so much earlier. Like I've had people started saying that was like a queer elder or trans elder. was like, I'm not ready for that. I would just like to be a full grown adult. Kind of just like we do have elders like Kate and other folks. really do. And then there are other days when I'm like, oh, I feel very elderly. I'm like, But I'm back. that's real. And also because to be honest, we're like, probably, I don't want to speak for you either, but probably both of us have buried a lot of people before their time in terms of, I've seen a lot of queer and trans folks in our communities die before their time. And at least I have, whether it's through systemic violence, whether it's through illness and the product of like, you know, systemic violence in a different way. And I don't know, I think that ages us too in some ways, you know, and But yeah, that could be an old conversation about trans aging. It's a thing for sure. That for today, it's like, oh, deep breath. like, I'm feeling that actually I'm going to slow myself down. I'm like, it's okay to feel that. And I think it is important to have those conversations about aging and what it feels like and how it's contextualized in terms of when we were being brought up, right? And the messages in dominant culture. Especially right now when we're seeing, I don't know about you, but I'm noticing a lot of messages coming back into dominant culture. They're very hostile and really depicting queer and trans communities in ways that do not line up with my experience to say the least. And in ways that I think are harmful to our youth. So I think it's really important to talk about how full our lives are and what it's like to be in our mid fifties. Yeah, absolutely. And I was just thinking, as you were talking about, you know, aging and community and everything. And it's like, well, you mentioned partners. I also have multiple partners and I think um like on purpose and that will be that way ongoing. um If they'll have me, you know, I think there's also something to. being in a multi-generational community, it's like, feel like in the trans community, it is that way. oftentimes, people around our age, um I'll speak for myself, I, again, I have people in my life that are younger and I feel like a lot of times, there's kind of the, people go the way of the normative sort of path and like, I'm doing something different and that almost like puts more of a variety of ages and typically younger ages than me um doing similar things like people in their 30s and 40s who are also non-monogamous, like also like in these like, you know, multiple communities. So I think that's just interesting to think about how that works. Oh, a hundred percent. Like I have several friends who are like 10 years, 20 years, actually one of my partners is 10 years younger than I am. And, you know, one of my nesting partners and then I have friends who are good 20 years, sometimes 25 years younger than me because I'm still involved in community organizing and a lot of people tend to kind of burn out. And so it was actually very sweet. try to have queer family dinner at our household and We're also an intergenerational household now because my daughter and her boyfriend moved in with us and I was like looking around the table and I was like, oh, I have friends who are actually closer in age to my kids age. And we are aware of our age difference in terms of our friendship, but there is something really beautiful in being able to be at a different place in life also where you can offer that kind of even just the stability of being able to host a queer family dinner with multiple people in our community. come together, give each other support. I don't know, it really felt like the web of interdependence and it just felt much closer to how it was brought up, right? Like being around the table during holidays and stuff and seeing two or three different generations of people sitting at the same table, right? Rather than all this like segregated by age kind of that I think a lot more mainstream folks might be used to. I don't know if I'm making sense. yeah, and also getting to sit around tables with people you actually want to. So again, but like, that's really nice. And then thinking about, um again, the fluctuations in. I'm thinking about fluctuations over time and like outness to like maybe around around the times when we were coming up or and especially before being out, like I, I really didn't have like. I think I maybe had ideas that people I was hanging out with were queer and people just weren't out, at least maybe that was regional, also where I was, I don't know. And just people weren't not out the way that they are now, which is awesome. And then I wonder, that gonna fluctuate? That's another reason to be in touch with folks that are a little bit younger too. uh they're out and like, you know what I mean? And then you can see each other if your closet is harder to find each other. And then I wonder if it's gonna go back that way a little bit. I don't know. I just don't, I wonder who knows. No, I mean, that's a good wondering. I've been thinking about that too. I mean, I love the rabbit holes we're going in, but stop me if you want to. But I think this is an important conversation. um One of the words I have is actually for younger folks not knowing, um like, how do we build webs of connection outside of some of the existing structures, like social media, for example, right? If we have to be more cautious or em for lots of different reasons, including our social positioning, right? And knowing that some of us in our community are gonna be higher risk than others, right? Because of how we're visualized or whether we're disabled or not, all of those different things. I think about like, oh, I remember days where, you know, all we had was like paper magazine and you had to go in person to the like the gay club and it was the gay club. It wasn't really the queer club or the gay cafe in London, which... rest in peace doesn't exist anymore, unfortunately, which was the first place that I gathered my courage in my 20s and walked in and I was like, oh, I'm doing it. After telling a few people I'm out in public in a gay space, right? And I think a lot of younger folks haven't had that experience. And I think that is really scary for a lot of them, not to know how to connect or how to exist outside of a more open know, way out in the open. Not to say that everybody can be out in the open, but I agree that there is a lot more visibility for, want to put a better word. Yeah, so many people have grown up with social media now and that's how they connect and which is beautiful for especially for people um who don't have access to in-person community. Maybe they live in a place where um it's not apparent where folks are or maybe like a smaller town and like maybe it's there, it's just really hard to find and so we get online and it's kind of like the diaspora meets, right? But yeah, if that's all you've known and that's how you make connections, then what happens when censorship is increasing and it is becoming more dangerous to be online for a lot of people? People are getting, lots of different things are happening. And so what happens if we, like I'm already like mostly not on, like I still have my social media, like people are welcome to follow me and, like, Honestly, don't expect a lot of content from me because I'm just not doing it anymore. I'm like, really not looking at it too much. I'm looking for messages sometimes, but it's not become a place that felt like it used to for me, that felt more like community. It's not feeling like that anymore. I do like to go on there sometimes and I'll see what friends are posting, things like that, but something has changed. so, yeah, I guess I am. I mean, nowadays, especially with everything going on now, I'm really focused on being uh like trying to talk to people with our voices, like you and I are talking, yes, we're on screens, but it's real time we're talking, especially in person, like, you know, with loved ones and friends and like thinking more about organizing in-person events, just getting together, people in community doing this more often locally. um micro locally, you know, how we can, so that we can talk to each other and tell each other what's feeling good, what do we need right now, you know, stuff like that. Not even to like receive it necessarily, just to know what it is and to have someone else hear it, you know. Absolutely. No, I love that. And that is so true. I've also been really drawn to like more local organizing, more like we need those third spaces. We need to connect with each other. I think it's so fascinating also that there is like this resurgence in, I mean, we've always had queer and trans zines, paper zines, but now it feels like there's another like resurgence of like this paper medium. And I was like, yes, like writing, right? The communicating with each other in this way. Anyway, you did mention the increased censorship and I think that's a good segue and one of the questions I wanted to ask you before we went into this beautiful side quest, which I love, and gender stories listeners or watchers for those of you watching YouTube are used to the Robbie Halls side quest. So this is not out of character for this podcast. But I am interested in what's it like for you to be so open about your identities. I love what you said that you're open about your social locations. Not necessarily the details. feel very similarly, unless I know people or details that I'm comfortable sharing in there. I know I have the consent of people in my family to share. But I'm interested in what it's like to be a sex therapist is already a little bit of sometimes a controversial role that not everybody understands in the world. And then on top of that, having those social locations of being openly trans and queer and kinky and polyamorous. What's the experience like for you generally, but maybe especially right now? Yeah, I mean, my my the way I have felt in my job has shifted a lot since I first started, because when I first started this job, I was transitioning out of sex work and which then gave me some freedom around how I wanted to express my gender and like be in my body. So when I first started, I was more on the hyper feminine spectrum because that's what served me really well in my previous job. And um honestly, in this field, you know, um field of like therapists and sex therapists, I think is pretty dominated by, let's say, conventionally attractive, like cis straight white women. And I looked a lot like that when I... first started and so that it felt a lot different. And I was stepping outside of the typical gaze and had this freedom to do what I wanted to with myself. And then, know, fast forward to now, like I was like, oh, okay, I didn't really have a plan and that's what happened and great. And so now I'm like, you know, my gender fluctuates, you know, daily, but I'm read a lot differently. And so I think that that's one thing that feels really different. I think my clients have different people approach me and it's great because I am like, yeah, I present the way I look, the way I look. And a lot of times, people professionally like clients or people in the world approach you based on what you look like. I mean, this is just the world we live in. Our eyes are like, give us so much information and nonverbal communication, you know, for um a lot of people, obviously not everybody. And so em that interface has changed, but I still talk a lot about being an expert in BDSM and um in non-monogamy. And so I get a lot of people coming to me from that, but I also get fewer people. Just in general, think that there's um particularly nowadays, I don't know, I think that there's messaging out in the world that makes people approach you with questions or uncertainty or maybe like, don't know, I've that a bit, which honestly, I'm a bit insulated in my community. have a really strong network, really strong community. Mostly in New York City, but also somewhat in other places. Like, look, you're in another place and there's different people in other places. So I am really lucky to have made these connections here. So, yeah, I don't know. It's a really weird feeling right now. I do feel, I feel good in my community. I feel good with this. this like the micro around me right now. um And I have to be really careful to like, you know, I wanna stay on top of everything that's going on. I look at the news every day, try to skip some days honestly, but I feel like responsible to kind of know what's going on um for people around me, for my clients, for my supervisees um and for myself. But I also have to be careful to not overwhelm myself because it's scary. It's scary to be alive right now. um To like worry about like what can happen, what will happen, what do need to do to protect myself further? Can I, you know? Oh, I so hear that because there are times where I'm like, oh, I'm too out or too public. It would be really easy, you know, like, and then I have to, I really set with those feelings, you know, really notice also the intergenerational pattern as somebody was brought up like in Italy where, you know, my grandma or my elementary school teacher would talk about, you know. living through World War II and fascism and what that looks like in the day to day, right? Like in school, work, like how do you get food during a war, all of that, but also the control and the fear. I really feel in the intergenerational fear and then going, okay, how do I wanna relate to this fear in this moment with my social locations and also the work that I do in the age I'm at? I wonder if I would have felt differently. you know, 20 years ago compared to now. And then I keep reminding myself like, oh, for some folks, this is how it's always been. It's always been dangerous or, you know, at least for a very long time, it's been dangerous to be themselves. And so that gives me some peace or settling. don't know what to call it. Yeah, I mean, and we're lucky. we're, you know, to, guess to feel the kind of fear from my positionality right now is a bit of a luxury. It's like, you know, I'm, I have, I'm used to feel like, you know, I did sex work for a very long time before changing careers, um whatever, like 12 years ago now or something. And, you know, for decades, literally. And there, and I know what that. feels like to feel sort of the hypervigilance around safety um and to be clear, not safety from clients or peers, but from the world at large and from, obviously from law enforcement and from other people who would, and yeah, so that, then like feeling like changing jobs and feel like, oh, like I can. speak more freely, but I was always out about it, but like you have to be careful. And now I can speak more freely. And there was this kind of relaxation and then it's like, I'm feeling the hypervigilance come back. And it's just interesting. But like, like you said, the fact that I feel these fluctuations is, is really, um I'm lucky. I'm lucky to have this privilege from, you know, this like, to be able to have this, this know, job to be able to have taken on all those student loans and like gotten into these schools. because I told them what they wanted to hear and, you know, presented in whatever way they wanted to get myself in, um that is all really lucky. um we've always had these kind of elements of oppression going on. And some people are like, yeah, it doesn't feel too much different now for lots of folks. than it always has. It's always like, how am I gonna make it till through today or the next five minutes or tomorrow or whatever. And so that really does give perspective. And it's really real that the trans community is obviously being targeted in a way that's different today than it has been in recent times. Although previously it also was targeted. So again, more fluctuations, but yeah, I obviously wish it wasn't going back in this way. um I don't think it's permanent. I don't think it can be. Like we're obviously not going anywhere. There's been these fluctuations for like ever and still like you can't like, well, we're gonna be here, you know. Exactly. And that's what I always read when I feel like, almost that pressure to despair or feel urgency. like, well, first of all, that's going to take some time. So it's like, yes, I feel the urgency and also know that we're in this, um, for quite some times, probably. But I also remember I'm like, Oh, this has been an issue for a long time, right? It's like, for Indigenous folks, this has been an issue from the beginning of colonization, like the violence towards to spirit folks, queer folks, Indigenous women and men folks in a different way. Like gender has always been something that I think systems of dominance have tried to like repress police control for lots of different reasons. And I think that... We're just seeing it kind of play louder and more openly, but it's not like those systems were not already geared up to perform gender violence and we're already performing gender violence. I think they're just doing it much more uh openly and that a lot more white folks are impacted than they have been in the past, if that makes sense. Yeah. you know, so you, when, when white people get impacted, then they, you know, there's this like affront and it's like, well, totally, but like, yeah, either the oppressors are more closeted or the marginalized people more closeted. It's like, I think, I don't know if, can you have both? don't know. I don't know, I hope so. I feel like at the same time there is this, I don't know if it's maybe the fact that we are more globally connected through the internet, right? That we can find a kind of solidarity across space, like literally like across time zones and geographical places and kind of come together in different ways. But it definitely feels like there is this desire to have a paradigm shift in some ways, right? Find kind of... uh new ways, right? Because I don't think we can ever go back another one or romanticize the past either, because I think that's another construct to romanticize the past. But I think that there is a desire to reconnect, right? Reconnect to belonging, to community, to figure out different ways of taking care of each other. Because many of us are realizing that maybe capitalism is not this like dream that uh a lot of people thought it to be and actually it's really driving us into an earthly grave most of the time for most of us. And so there's also, I don't know, I think I draw my hope from this like awakening. And it's interesting that the awakening seems very somatic, which is also interesting as a sex therapist, a lot more people, a lot more white folks, I should say, interested in like embodiment, in like being here. and being able to understand kind of what their body minds are doing, what their nervous system are doing so that there can be like a presence and a connection. I think those things kind of go hand in hand in some ways. And it's like when we started out talking about academia, like it makes me think of like, it's that's been an easy place for me to hide is in this like part of my brain. And so it actually took a long time for me to be able to get more into my body. know, was like um externalizing things in so many ways. And anyway, just thought of that coming back around to. Absolutely, there is such a dominance and celebration of the intellectualizing and prefrontal cortex in academia and we could talk about that for a long time. really seem to get us anywhere. mean, look at what's going on. That didn't really help, it? In fact, it's like, academia falls in line with these harmful practices. Exactly. I was like, I am not super shocked that a lot of systems are like complying in advance. And I'm like, yes, that's what systems do. They do comply in advance and they tend to like follow the status quo. Yeah. So I'm curious about what are you noticing in your clients or supervises in this moment? Maybe especially folks who are like younger than us, you know, where GenXers maybe like kind of. uh younger millennials or Gen Z years or even Gen office. think some of the Gen office are coming up to being adults or near adults at this point, which is terrifying. I thought, but what are you noticing in your life and your clients in your superbases in terms of how they're navigating this moment in time? I mean, so I have a lot in terms of clients that I see, have a really, I have a pretty diverse mix of folks that I see. The way that I do my practice is like a subsidy model where like I like, I charge a pretty high fee and then that helps too. And then I see people that can't pay or don't pay very much. And so that kind of like balances it out. And the result of that too, is that I, there's a lot of different kinds of people that I work with. And so honestly, there are some people that I work with that um aren't really noticing too much at all. yeah, in terms of changes right now, mean, typically people have oftentimes have an awareness and they, but they might not be, it might not be something that we talk about in therapy. They're talking about something else. And then folks who have been, the ones that are most struggling, it's kind like we were saying before, it's like also not a lot has changed for them. They're still like, they're still like seeing whether or not they can even get health insurance, like will they have a place to live, know, navigating violence from, you know, world around them. you know, so that is also, so it's honestly, it's kind of like the folks in, somewhere in between those that are voicing the most impact. It's kind like what we were saying before. It's like the privilege of noticing how fucked you are. Sorry, I forgot to ask if I'm allowed to say that. All right, so we won't have to edit that. yeah, it is interesting. It's the ones who been like, maybe they've been doing okay or like have been doing even better. And then there's this fear of doing worse or of being attacked more or losing something they only recently found, you know, stuff like that. So I think that's for clients, what I'm noticing. And also it's just like, sometimes so bizarre, like I will come in and I love my work. I feel so lucky to have figured out that I love this and can do it. Like I think I do a pretty good job. and also, you know, it, takes work to show up sometimes, like some days it's like, okay, I get to put my own stuff away. I get to not think about myself or anything that's going on except for this person in front of me, which is really wonderful. And also sometimes it's harder to do that than others because it's like, well, they're talking about it. And sometimes I'm like, like, okay, just like recalibrating to what is going on here can be challenging because of, you know, something I know that's going on in my community or, But that's our job and it's part of what I love about our job. um I love being able to like just not think about myself for a little while. Love that. It is a pretty great part of the job. agree. I think it is tricky though, when we share some identities with our clients, because we are impacted by kind of similar things. so, yeah, I don't know about you, there are days where I'm like, this is great. Like, we're just focusing on this. And then days where, I mean, the world is always present in the therapy room, but where it feels like the world takes center stage rather than being around us, if that makes sense. Yeah. Right, and it's in our job description to like hold the space, hold the frame, and which means like, you know, we can be having the same or similar feelings and it's like, but this is not the time for me to get into that right now. And that can be really tricky. Really tricky. And also sometimes the clients have told me or I've noticed, I think they feel like it's kind of weird. because it's like, what's, you're not like, you know, I'm really feeling this, I'm telling you about it. And I'm like, being supportive and also being honest. And I will not, I'm not pretending like it doesn't affect me. I'm say to people, I'm gonna be honest and depending on our relationship and what we're talking about. I'll say like, yeah, you know, I'm feeling similarly about this or this affected me in a similar way, but I'm not getting into, going into, is this not, that's not what it is. Like it's about you, it's about, not you, but like, you know, it's about my client. em You know, so that's sometimes weird too. it's particularly when clients know how much we do have in common. But it's good. I mean, I think it's, know, it's what it's, I'm glad to be doing it. um I'm really, even though sometimes it's hard. And then it's different with people that I work with, particularly with my supervisees. I feel so protective, like in a way, like I feel like... um And that also feels good. It feels good to have something to do like that, honestly. Like I want everybody that I work with to know that like, I am here for you to talk, tell me what you need. Like we're gonna figure things out. We're here in this space together. And um that feels really important. um And I enjoy doing that. And like, I'm just a little bit more vigilant, like keeping my eye out for what kind of support people need. And I think we're, you know, people are nervous. but particularly younger clinicians. Really, everybody I know in the trans clinicians are more or less kind of nervous about what's going on. In New York, it's a nice place to be, but there's really weird things going on here too politically. It's really hard to know. So just kind of like, what can we do for each other? um Trying to be open to that. navigating all the power dynamics within all that. Yeah, there's a lot of layers because I so relate like that protectiveness of younger clinicians, know, and not always necessarily age younger, but even professional identity development younger, you know, depending on when they're coming into the profession. you know, and even, yeah, I live in a trans refuge state and that doesn't mean that things are not happening here either, you know, in different ways. And it's just like... There's just so many things happening on so many different levels. And then I agree that one of our ethical duties is like to take care of ourselves and our feelings. So we don't bring them in like the therapy room in certain ways or the supervisor relationship in certain ways. And that's also work that I think often people don't think about in terms of therapeutic work. It's like that making sure we have time to process things that might have come up for us when we work with clients or with supervisees, right? you know, making sure that we give ourselves space to like, take care of ourselves. And that can be hard given that, you know, we all live in a moment in capitalism where cost of living is going up, but, you know, wages are not going up and all of that kind of complicated, like how do we not live in a way where we're constantly extracting from ourselves and exhausting ourselves. And at the same time, you know, showing up in all the ways we need to, it's a lot to juggle. It's quite a balance, yeah. And I'm always telling folks, like, when are you going to take time off? And then I, of course, have to take time off too. Otherwise, it's just like, yeah, you're saying that, but you're not really doing it. So I figure out when to do that, which, figuring that out. Oh my God, that is so real. And even I often joke that like being a sex therapist, I talk more about sex than actually engage in like pleasure or having time for, you know, for sex or connecting with community because I'm like, oh, there is just so much work. And then I have to remember, part of the work is also to take care of myself, make sure I stay connected to my communities and my relationships. But it can be so hard to become other focused. It's that balance. I don't know if you experienced that, but for me, it's always that balance. No, absolutely. Yeah, always looking for, um I mean, I do lean on hedonism a little bit in terms of like something, but I also love to work. So I tend to work a lot and I, it's, really feeling what you're saying in terms of like, yeah, like, you know, I do a lot of scheduling and things like that. And so, and I was, it just reminded me of a conversation I had with a colleague not too long ago because I'm trying to connect, like I said, one-on-one, one-on-one or multiple with community and say, how are we doing? What do we need? Is there anything we want to collaborate on? And it's like really, well, really the thing is that connection and pleasure and like, do we, how do we like, we need to, we need, that's so important. Absolutely. all the time, but it's easier to forget right now because there can be so much despair and darkness. And so it's even more important to focus on that pleasure. I so agree. I feel really lucky to have been brought up by a parent who had his own issues in many other ways, but he was a labor union organizer. And so even just that message of like, we need community, we need each other. And the whole concept of bread and roses, right? That it's not just about making enough to take care of your family and put food on the table, but we also need rest. We also need beauty. in our life, right? Whatever that is, whether it's having the time to make a nice meal, enjoying the flowers outside, connecting with people, right? It's like, you know, the labor movement was always very clear. It's not just about bread, but it's about rest and it's about, you know, the pleasure in life, right? And I think it can be easy in this moment to feel like pleasure is not a priority. And I'm wondering if you're finding that even in your clinical work that people are finding other things are more urgent, but the pleasure is what feeds us to them do the harder work, I think. No, absolutely. It's an investment in sustainability to do other work. And I really get worried and I am definitely vocal about it. When I hear people feeling like something I've heard clients talk about feeling guilty for needing a moment or needing to rest even to just to stop doing with not even pleasure, but just like to or slow down. And it's like, but there's always more to do. I'm like, yeah, guess what? There's always going to be more to do. Like you, you can't do it by your like, none of us can do it. There's always more we can do, and also we're not going to be able to keep doing it if we don't take a minute and remind ourselves of the reasons why we enjoy being alive. Hopefully, find those things. If it's hard to find, do some work in finding those things. I so agree. Yeah. I feel like that's part of that. I two thoughts at once, but one, as you were talking, I was thinking about one of my queer elders, Donald Engstrom-Rees, who's a semi-elder as well, uh said something that was really impactful a few years ago during a meeting was that balance is not meant to be within the individual, but within community. And I've been thinking about that a lot, that like when you talked about collaboration, I was really feeling that I was like, yes, we need to do things more collectively. But a lot of us are not used to being in the shared power consensus decision making, right? More collaborative community spaces. So I think a lot of people are like practicing that and practicing kind of building community, especially folks who have kind of lost their skill through, you know, assimilating into whiteness and all that good stuff. um But then this other piece about like, You know, we don't even give ourselves just the rest that we need, let alone pleasure or embodiment. And being a sex therapist, sometimes people think it's just about sex. But for me, when I say sex, it's really about embodiment and aliveness, right? It's about being able to like look aside and look at the trees and just really feel that connection right with the trees around me, um you know, or really. feel the water like when I shower or when I drink it and really just feel that relationality and that sense of aliveness, like how lucky are we to be alive and to have breath, you know, before we return to being part of the ecosystem in a different way, right? And I think sometimes people think that sex therapy is just like relationship issues or like the type of relationships we have. or the type of sex we have. But I don't know how you approach sex therapy. But I think especially from a queer perspective, it like it's so much more expansive than that. Yeah, it's always, at least the way I practice, it's so rarely about the body part functioning or even desire. A lot of the times it's about what's getting in the way of that and it's all this other stuff going on. in order to, yeah, there's these steps about how do you stay embodied? How do you notice your environment? How do you appreciate that? instead of fighting with these extra or assuming, I have to perform in this particular way because that's what, yeah, so it's very much like. And I think that's the beauty of being like a queer trans kinky polyamorous provider is also that I don't want to speak for you, but I feel like we know what it's like to go off script, off normative script, right? And a lot of our clients are struggling with being their authentic selves and going off script sometimes. And I think we have a gift to give no matter what the positionalities of client is, right? I actually love working with cis straight couples and and relationships, which I also, it's weird, but so much of it is gender work. I always joke that working with cis straight couple is 90 % gender work in terms of like how those expectations of normative binary gender show up in uh their dynamic and how when they can like break those open, like they can find so much more expansiveness. So I don't know, I always feel like that we have so many gifts to give to like cisheteromononormative world. But I think they're also afraid of it sometimes. Maybe. I don't know. It's fair think because one of the things that I say is things are gonna get a little awkward and I feel fine with that. I don't mind at all. you've ever, I mean any kinky person should understand things are gonna feel awkward or be funny or be weird or any of these identities we're talking about, um there are these like... moments like that. And I think the fear, particularly from maybe people who aren't so much in the marginalized groups, is there is a fear of awkwardness or of not performing correctly. And I think that's where it is. It's like, oh, it's okay. You kind of have to be okay with fucking up now and again and then looking at it and saying, oh, that's useful that that happened. But if you're so worried, like that's where people get so stuck. And I do think we have, by virtue of having to like figure out these things about ourselves and like these interpersonal things and relationship and like identity things and all that, there are so many awkward moments that you kind of really have to embrace in order to keep, in order to like, you know, do it, forward. Exactly. And it's so worth it. I wonder if there's like one thing that you wish you could like either help folks understand or do differently. You know, I know in my own practice, especially because I often have worked really with folks for a lot, for a long time with folks who experienced trauma or have experienced trauma. I always say if I could give one thing to all my clients would be like self-compassion is such a useful tool, right? Um, and when you were talking about the awkwardness, I was like, that's where self-compassion can really come in. yeah. What that, wow. That didn't go as I expected, or I didn't react as I expected and what can I learn from it? I'm not going to be gentle to myself. And, and I wonder if you have like one or two things that you're like, I wish I could just like wave a magic wand, you know, and like, to that the world or my clients understand this or can do this differently. I know it's a really big question. was like, No pressure, just a simple question thrown at you without any warning. No, I mean, you know, there's always, I don't know about no warning, but. I don't really have the thing ready, like the thing to say ready. So let me stumble through it since, and just like walk the walk. If I say I'm happy to be awkward, then I have to show you that I can be awkward. Well, and to be fair, I think I sprang this question on you like five minutes before we started recording. So I would say that's no warning. Yeah, think that, well, I think a lot of people hold themselves to a different standard than they hold other. And I'm always asking people like this way that you're being so hard on yourself right now, like, would you do that to this person that you love? Like, what would you say to them? Like, that's not how you would treat them. Can you at least treat yourself as well as somebody that you really love, you know? em Which means you have to really... maybe love yourself, figure out a way to do that. It's kind of similar to what you're saying about the self-compassion. I think that's really it. Can we go easy on ourselves? And also, that doesn't mean we're letting ourselves off the hook all the time. That's not what that means. It's the opposite. It's like looking at the hook and being like, okay, that's fine. What can I take from this? What can I leave behind? It's like, this is all part of it. It's all part of. if that was even coherent. It's totally coherent. love that piece of like, you um know, having a relationship with that hook. right? What do I want to hold myself accountable for? What can I be a bit more gentle? How would I approach this with somebody else often say similar things to my clients too of like, I bet that you wouldn't say this to somebody you cared about. mean, sometimes I'm like, you wouldn't say this to a stranger on the street, but you say it. And I mean, And I know because I've done it. are things I say to myself about myself that I wouldn't say to like a stranger on the street. And I have to remind myself, okay, Alex, what's going on right now? Like you wouldn't not say this to anybody or you would not treat anybody this way. So why do you feel like it's okay to treat yourself that way? But I think that a lot of it, I mean, some of it is trauma, but I think some of it is also the systemic trauma that like in a way under capitalism, I think. And I'm just thinking about this as we talk. I don't know if I'm going to be coherent either. the way, we're so used to modify ourselves in service to capitalism, right? We're like a body mind that we need to extract from ourselves to produce, produce, produce, to take care of ourselves, take care of our families, our communities, our loved ones, right? And so it can be easy to almost look at ourselves as like ah a tool to use rather than... somebody living being that we are in deep relationship with. I don't know if I'm making sense, but yeah. I was just thinking about that. was like, it's not just personal trauma, don't think. I guess that's the magic wand, right? Like, so if I waved a magic wand and then there was no capitalism, there would be no need to like produce, like to worry how many hours are working, like, how are people seeing me? Are they going to want to like, you know, invest in X, Y, you know, I mean, what a different world it would be. I'm of that book that I read. Have you heard of the the oral histories of New York where it talks about I have no idea if something like that is possible, I love science fiction, I'm always reading. And that is more like speculative fiction, I think. I don't know, But it was really fun to kind of get my brain in a different place, you know, and to think about, oh, we would just do... And it's like with mental health. There was a character in the book that was um on the schizophrenia spectrum and could could work, like had an important, like had valuable work to provide for community and did it when they could. And when they couldn't, they needed other people to hang out with them and be safe. it was all fine. It all worked out. Anyway, I love that story. That's beautiful. I love that. I'm also a big fan of science fiction and speculative fiction. And I've interviewed several authors, trans authors especially on the podcast where we talked exactly about this, like how important it is to be able to imagine a different future. I remember with Red Fern, one of the folks I interviewed, we talked a lot about ambitopia as well. So not dystopia, not utopia. What's it like to create like an ambitopic world where it's like... You know, it's kind of, it's a mixed bag, which is much more realistic in terms of messy humanity, right? But there's something to be sad about being able to imagine a different future so that we can, uh, act towards it, right? there is just something about, I don't know, for me, the hope that speculative fiction and science fiction can bring in terms of things can be different. Like this has not existed forever. and it probably will not exist forever because the only certainty is change, which is why I love Octavia Butler so much, of course, you know, because... Yeah, and so that's important about playing and playing is that generative creativity that helps us to imagine something else as possible. Exactly. And I feel like a lot of the work sometimes a sex therapist is to encourage our clients to like play more, not just with sex, but we're like gender identities, expressions, sexuality, relationships, what happens if we don't hold them so tightly, you know, within this like tiny, tiny boxes that kind of colonialism and patriarchy and capitalism wants us to put this things in. And maybe that's why sexuality and gender are things that systems of dominance and oppression always try to control, right? Cause that's the danger. What if we realized that we don't have to live this way? Shocker. No, exactly. Which I love. my God. feel like I could have this conversation forever, but I to be respectful both of your time and the listener's time. So I'm going to ask you two, easy question. One is like, How do you kind of nourish yourself at the moment and find trans joy? Because I've been asking that to all my trans interviewees because why not? I think that trans joy is resistance in a world that wants us miserable or not existing. uh So yeah, how are you like nurturing your wellbeing and connecting with pleasure and joy? Yeah. I mean, kind of like what we were already talking about, I'm really paying attention. I'm trying to pay attention to what my body wants and my brain is part of my body. but like, I reminded myself last night that I haven't painted my nails in a couple of weeks. And like, I really needed to, particularly after getting off of, saw some news and I'm like, oh, you know what? I'm going to paint my nails now. And sometimes I like change my body hair situation entirely. And that's, you know, just like, freshen things up or like change something and like but listening to what I what what my body wants and needs and like I am a social person and like being around people that I like being around people that I feel good around and so I always I'm always trying to do that. I'm also a big science fiction nerd as I already mentioned I read a lot I watch a lot of films and so I'm like you know looking for for those kinds of Yeah, getting my head in a different place. So, I would say. That's great. love that. Yeah. I love watching movies and TV series. I'm like a big popular culture nerd. oh So many conversations. And the last question I will ask, I always ask at the end of the podcast is, was there anything else that we didn't talk about that you were like, I thought we were going to talk about this or I wish we went more into that or anything like that. remember that you asked that, but no, I don't. I really like to come into the conversation just in the moment and not having anything. But I think we got to, I think I was just saying things as they came up. Yeah, I'm just more having a feeling like right now, hear about you and about people that are gonna be listening to this and feeling, yeah, it's like I'm wanting to feel this feeling of connection. We are all out here together. I don't know, I just wanna, I just suddenly, as you asked me that question, that's what I was feeling. So it's not so much a thought, but more of a feeling here. Like we're together, we're connected. Feels nice. when you said that, they really invited me to feel that in my body too. And it was so beautiful because this is why I do it. mean, and listeners know this, sometimes my episodes are a little sporadic, like there's been a few months I hate us from the last episode. And then I was like, yeah, know, capitalism is so demanding and I'm disabled. And then I do interviews like this. And I'm like, when you said that, was like, that's right. This is why I do this because I get... it at the same time and I hope that other people are going to be feeling that too and like, so I'm just going to ask people to check in with themselves right I love that. I love that invitation. So dear listeners or watchers, take a minute to check in with yourself and see how you feel after listening or watching this conversation. I I feel awesome and I feel so grateful for your time and your wisdom and insight and your work in the world, like who you are in the world and everything you bring to our field and to our communities. I'm just really grateful. So thank you. Likewise, Alex, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Love talking to you. And Dear Gender Stories listeners, until next time, I hope you find ways to slow down and listen to your body as Dr. Pitagora has reminded us of and that you find moments of sweet connection and embodiment. And until next time.