Relationality in a F***ed Up World with Dean Spade

Dr. Alex Iantaffi speaks with Dean Spade about his life-long work in queer and trans liberation, the challenges of writing about relationships, and the importance of emotional awareness and conflict resolution in relationships and movement building.  

Dean Spade has been working in movements for queer and trans liberation, anti-militarism, and police and prison abolition for the past 25 years. He’s the author of Normal Life: Administrative Violence, Critical Trans Politics, and the Limits of Law, and Mutual Aid: Building Solidarity During This Crisis (and the Next) the director of the documentary “Pinkwashing Exposed: Seattle Fights Back!.” His new book is Love in a Fucked Up World: How to Build Relationships, Hook Up and Raise Hell Together, and he is the host of a new podcast with the same name. 

Listen to Dean’s new podcast: https://www.deanspade.net/podcast/ 

Find out more about Dean and his work at the following links:  

deanspade.net
IG: @spade.dean
X: @deanspade
Facebook: Dean Spade
Bluesky: deanspade.bsky.social
Tiktok: @deanspade 

Instagram: GenderStories
Hosted by Alex Iantaffi
Music by Maxwell von Raven
Gender Stories logo by Lior Effinger-Weintraub

Transcript

0:35

Hello and welcome to another episode of Gender Stories. I know that I'm always like excited, elated, thrilled, and it's true because I get to talk to the coolest people, just because I have a podcast. There you go. So, if white dudes can do it, so can we. So today I am super excited to be talking to Dean Spade because I have known of Dean's work for A long time I have read Dean's work and I so appreciate everything he brings to the movement. um But I'm going to read his bios so that if you haven't come across Dean's work, then you can learn about it. Dean Spade has been working in movements for queer and trans liberation, anti-militarism and police. Let me start that again. Thank you for adding in that out route. uh Dean Spade has been working in movements for queer and trans liberation, anti-militarism, and police and prison abolition for the past 25 years. He's the author of Normal Life, Administrative Violence, Critical Trans Politics, and The Limits of Law, and Mutual Aid, Building Solidarity During This Crisis. And the next, the director of the documentary Pinkwashing Exposed, Seattle Fights Back, and his new book is Love in a Fucked Up World, which is so great, and we're going to talk about this. And the full title is, Love in a Fucked Up World, How to Build Relationships, Up and Raise Hell Together. And he's the host of a new podcast with the same name. And all the links are going to be in the episode description, whether you're watching on YouTube or you're listening wherever you listen to podcasts. So thank you, Dean, and thank you for making time for Gender Stories. Thank you for inviting me. I'm so excited to get to talk to you. Me too. So, um, I knew I was like, listeners, I got a ground talking to Dean because when you admire somebody's work, it's such a privilege to get to talk to them and it's such a privilege to get to talk to you, So you've written this amazing book, which I really love, love in the fucked up world about relationship, which came out this year. And I also, Meg- John Barker have a book about relationships that came out this year. So, and I'm showing them for folks who are on YouTube and if you're listening, I'm showing the books. uh And I don't think it's an accident that there are all these books about relationships and the challenges to think about relationships outside of just the Cicero mononormative paradigm, just outside of just romantic relationships, but really they're inviting us to think, I think, about relationality and what we need to show up. with each other, whether it's in community, whether it's friendships, uh whether it is uh loving romantic sexual relationships. And so I'm really curious about why you chose to write a book about relationships and kind of what brought you to write this fantastic book. really want to answer this question, but first I'm dying to ask you, like, when did you start writing the book that you published this year? What is that arc for you? Yeah, that's a great question. Well, Meg-John and I started thinking about this book back in 2018, 19, we had written How to Understand Your Gender and our editor at the time, Andrew at Jessica Kingsley was like, oh, would you like to write other books in the How to series? And I was like, yes, we can do sexuality and relationships. So we've been like talking about this book. Oh yeah, definitely since 2018, because we were already talking about it. when Meg-John and I got together in 2019, because we live on different sides of the ocean. And so, yeah, we've been thinking about this book for a few years, and then we really sat down and kind of did the final draft in the summer of 2023, and it just came out in January. it's been a few years in the making. Okay, yeah, mean, many people have said to me since my book was published in January, this is the right time for this. And I was like, that's a total accident because I have been writing this book for 10 years. Like, this is the hardest thing I've ever written. It took me so long. I rewrote it so many times. I put it down so many times. Like, I put it down and wrote the book Mutual Aid. Like, I mean, just, it's, you know, quite different from my other work. I'm sure you noticed as someone who's been in conversation longer. um Yeah, so the timing is definitely just accidental. When could I get this thing done with all of my own struggles with it? But yeah, why haven't I read a book about relationships? um I think that my experience, and I'd be curious about this for you too, is I've spent my life in movements for liberation, and I've been very concerned about what are the obstacles to those movements? My first book was a lot about like how the fixation on law and legal equality is actually an obstacle to our movements and misunderstands power and, you know, it was kind of directing us towards grassroots work. And my second book, Mutual Aid, was about, you know, how we do that work and like why people think that change comes from above, but actually comes from us caring for each other community and like what gets in the way of us doing that and how do we do it? And, while doing all of that work all these years, like obviously I've been in these movements that were like such a giant obstacle to our flourishing and to our connecting with each other and like doing the things we long to do is that we're still acting in our relationships according to the scripts of the dominant culture. And we're having causing each other a lot of pain and a lot of missed connections and harm and conflict. And most of us are out of alignment with our values. Like I feel like even people who are coming from like feminist, anti-racist, anti-capitalist values who have a lot of ideas, even those of us who really passionately think about and study how those systems work. we have a hard time bringing that kind of critical thinking to like when I'm really upset about something or when I really want something or when I really fear something. It kind of goes out the door. And then the existing tools that are out there, like a lot of the relationship self-help tools actually are not aligned with our values. So when you go to those things, you're like, I'm suffering with anxiety, with relationship problems, with wanting to heal my sexuality, whatever it is. uh then that toolbox is a lot of stuff that's uh ableist and racist and like you were saying, heterosexist all these things. And so I found myself, I've been someone who's needed a lot of those tools and I've spent my whole life, I've like since middle school, like obsessively reading self-help and like trying things and just doing anything because I wanted to feel better in different ways and have my life be more like what I wanted. But when I would wanna share those things with friends or people I was working with, kind of like, I can't really hand you this book because it's actually like got really mean stuff in it for you. And like, would try sometimes like I kind of migrate out an idea and be like, this is I would be able to talk about it, but I wouldn't be able to say like, I really trust this source for someone else. I just wanted to like Do that a little more, like bring some of the useful ideas to, a language and in through the frameworks of things I believe in and that people in my communities believe in a need and see if there could be, and obviously there's more of this now. There are more people. bridging that road than ever before. Thank God, you know. I'm curious about the story. I mean, I understand it's related to your prior book, but I'm also just like, what was it like? Was there new research about relationships? And also you co-wrote, like, what's that process like? my God, what great questions. I was listening to you, I was like, yes, yes, yes. uh Very similar, very similar motivation to be quite honest. I mean, obviously I'm also what is called the family therapist in the so-called US and I say what is called a family therapist. Cause when I trained, actually I trained as a systemic psychotherapist. That's kind of the label in the UK where I trained and the label that's used in Europe for systemic psychotherapy. which I think it's indicative that then it translates into a marriage and family therapy in the US and we could talk about that. So I've been obsessed with relationship and relational patterns my whole life. And now I understand that that's also part of my own neurodivergence as an autistic person with ADHD But also because, you know, I knew there was dissonance between the values of the culture that was being brought up in and the realities of my family. And there was also congruence, right? It was complicated. So I became fascinated with relationships. And then Meg-John and I, my writing partner, one of my writing partners now, because I'm writing a different book with somebody else too, I've talked about relationships the whole time we've known each other, which is 21 years last summer. We wrote the book exactly 20 years to the month since we met. And we write about that in the introduction. And so it was a really hard book to write. I felt like all the ghosts of our past relationships and current relationships were in the room while we were writing this book, right? Our own relational history, which changed, know, Meg-John and I, and we talk about this in the book, started as a romantic relationship, which ended pretty quickly, but we were really committed to staying in community and keep collaborating and doing. movement work together. And so working through all of that, and so all of that, it's in the book too. And so as I was listening to you, I was really reflecting on the parallels. I was like, yes, different pathways, of course, but very similar desire of wanting a resource that wasn't just about, here's the formula to have perfect relationships, which I'm. So tired of, right? And Meg-John of course, had already written a book about relationship because they have the Rewriting the Rules and the down two editions of that too. And so our own thinking had evolved. I work with relationships all the time and I see the pain that people carry in my own pain. I've done a lot of work to heal my own complex PTSD, figuring out how to navigate relationships as a neurodivergent person who didn't even know. I was a neurodivergent person and also committed to uh values that didn't translate while in dominant culture, if that makes sense. So the motivation was super similar. uh Meg-John and I definitely brought our own writing partnership, which is uh pretty unique just because the foundation is our friendship. And our friendship is way more important. not even friendships feel redacted because really it's an intimate partnership, even though we're not. kind of romantic or sexual partners. It's an intimate process to write with somebody in a lot of ways. And so we really brought 20 plus years of like commitment to each other and commitment to being accountable for our own fuck ups as much as we're able, right? And movement work to this book. And also different cultural backgrounds and experiences I was born and brought up in Italy. They were born and brought up in England. I lived in the UK for 15 years before moving to Turtle Island. And so they were all, I'm a parent, they're not. So we also brought a lot of different life experiences. But the motivation is very similar. And especially as a therapist, I didn't have any book that could confidently say, look at this book. I had to be like, look at this book, but it's so... Super cishetero or mononormative. Look at this book, but they're focusing on romantic relationship. And I know we're talking about like your relationship with your comrades, you know. Look, and I was so tired of having to do all the caveats, right? Look at this book but its super ableist. Look at this book but it doesn't take an intersectional lens, right? And so the motivation was incredibly similar. And it's so amazing to see this explosion of radical books about relationships like... Mel Cassidy has got a book that's coming out about radical relating. Tuck Malloy has got a book, Expansive Love, think it is. I'm terrible with matching names and titles. ah But I feel it's in the water. I think a lot of us have been feeling it. So I don't know, does that answer your question? Great. Just because you said that you all basically drafted it in 2023, I'm like, do you not have any problems with procrastination? Like, what is your writing problem? Like, I feel like, and I had it so much worth with this book because I felt, I think this book brought up a lot of questions like, am I authorized to write this? Is it okay for me to write this? Books like this are usually written by therapists. I'm just like another messed up person. you know, I think, you This is so far outside my usual genre, will people think... that I'm doing some neoliberal self-help. You know, I had so much, I had to do a lot of like, I would like had a whole ritual every time before I sat down to write to like remind myself I was allowed to try writing this. But I'm curious, like, A, you're writing with another person who you have this beautiful long relationship with and you're writing it pretty fast. Like I would love to hear about it. And I know now you're co-writing another book right now. So will you tell me more about your own, like what does your writing process look like? Oh, I'm always happy to talk about my writing process. I love that you're interviewing me instead of me interviewing you, but we can, I was like, I love that it's a conversation on Gender Stories and it goes wherever we want it to go. Oh, I have so many problems with procrastination, Dean, are you kidding? I'm like, when I figured out my own neurodivergence, it was so funny because I had some mentees who were like, oh, you're not diagnosed with ADHD already? You're like the poster child, overcommitted. like too many projects, overextended. was like, you have a point now that you point out all those things. So yes, writing with another person is very helpful for me in terms of not procrastinating. Plus, I think that there's the autism, the balance, the procrastination with the, have to do the thing because I said I will do the thing. have a very role following uh kind of type of neurodivergence in some ways. And I think what helps My process is also that books that I'm writing leave in my head for a very long time before they come on the page, if that makes sense. So, you know, I feel like in a way, our Understanding Your Relationships was written in 2023, but it is a 20 years long conversation with Meg-John that we both sat down and then brought to life in this book. And then when I write with Meg-John, it is uh very much its own process. We go into this like... semi-monastic bubble, that's the best way I can describe it, where we cut off the outside world pretty much um and just focus on being with each other and the writing. And we really try to hold each other really gently as well. they get up early in the morning, I don't because I usually have like bad nights of sleep as a disabled person. So they do what they need to do uh in the morning and then I get up and then we have an emotional check-in, then we write. then we break, then we write some more. We do have the advantage of being fast writers in some ways, especially when we're together, because when we're together, I think we can also reassure each other self-doubt. mean, Meg-John has written like, I don't know, over 20 books at this point. They're so experienced as a writer, right? And they have been such a good, like, just write the thing down. It doesn't have to be perfect, you know? And even when I look at books I've written, you know? eight years ago, I'm like, yeah, would write it differently now. And so part of it is really protecting the time and protecting the bubble. And also every time we, the joke is that we come together and we're like, it's okay if we don't write the book, but of course then our monotropic focus kicks in, like, and we go into hyper-focus and we do write the book, you know? And of course then there's editing and going back and forth, but that always feels more easeful once the book is written. Um, but writing a book about relationships was hard because even as a therapist, you know, was like, um, you know, I'm also just like a person and people are messy. And I Meg-John always says the mess is the message. And I was like, you are right. This is partially like. good because we acknowledge like we're not telling you how to do relationship. We are actually giving you some frameworks to understand why you do relationships in a certain ways and what are the tools out there that you could use ah if you want to do relationships differently. So for me, it's very much inviting people into intentionality, you know, so that there is the alignment of values with practices. But I absolutely have issues with procrastination and with like Gender Trauma another book that came out in 2020, which I wrote solo. That was much harder. That book was in my mind for years. I talked about it with people, including my editor was like, I need the book proposal now. This is the time right back in 2018, whenever it was. I kept pushing the deadline out. have another book that's been... contracted since 2020 and I still haven't given it to Routledge. So I have a lot of problems with procrastination. And when I write by myself, it's much harder. When I write with other people, I think that there is that accountability piece, which is why I love writing with people. When I'm writing by myself, I'm always like, oh, like, I don't know. This is like, should I write this book? And I mean, with Gender Trauma asked myself that all the time. was like, it should be an indigenous person writing this book because I'm really talking about how the gender binary is part of this colonial legacy that's at the heart of the book and how it pervades all the systems. um And I wanted somebody else to write it, but nobody did. And then I wrote it I was like, it can be part of the conversation. em there's also a piece about writing an art where You know, I have a lot of similar thoughts. people going to see this as performative sometimes even when I post on social media, right? Are people going to think this? And a lot of the practice for me has been my only job is to say what I need to say, let what I need to come through, come through. Cause it's also spiritual practice in some way. I don't know for you, but I feel that like almost spiritual compulsion to write. I don't know how else to explain it or talk about things. And then my job is just to let it go and it lands where it lands. And if there's valid critique, I'm so open to it. Um, and so I don't know if that, helps you, but, I'm curious about your process. Cause it sounds like, and I mean, I get it. Like writing about relationship, it's really hard. You're like excavating like your life. And, and then I was like, what if people under like, what if people get offended or what if people are like, you're talking about me here? You know, or I don't know. So I'm curious about. I don't know if I'm making sense and I'm like, yeah, good. that I would write too much from somebody with my type of experience because, you know, there are so many ways that we all are and that I really tried to, because I'm also... uh you know, just I'm connected, deeply connected to so many people. I'm a person who connects with people easily and has a lot of uh friendships, lot of students and mentees and stuff, and tell me about their lives and relationships. So really trying to like think about people who are not like me too, and right in the way that would be inclusive. And so that was something I remember. often being worried about and just yeah, being especially the level of ableism in the literature in this literature that like healthy relationships type of narratives and the idea that people's lives are like good if they meet normative standards, I was like, how do I really, really try to get out of that baggage when I am actually using some touchstones from that literature and some ideas that have been helpful to me? That was like something I felt really torn about. And the thing you just said about like thinking that the book you were writing, Gender Trauma, should be written by an indigenous person. I definitely, I didn't have this as much with this book, but when I first started writing zines in like the late 90s and when I first decided to try writing a book, I had that feeling like, Why should I write a book? Why should I take up any more space? And I really, it's been really helpful to me to see other people who I love and whose voices I value struggle with that. And just to be like, you're not stopping anyone else from doing this by doing this. It's not a zero sum game. Like only 20 will ever come out on this. And there's so many ways to support other writers and other people. That I think is something, if anyone listening to this is giving themself that story, just like, I think it's useful for us to remind each other. Also, it's something else people, a lot of people I know talk about. If I write this, someone else has already said it or it's being said, and I'm like, literally, if, I haven't read your book yet, but if you and I wrote the exact same content, our books would be different and that would be beneficial to readers. Because all of us need to read things multiple times and read ideas multiple times and from multiple perspectives. that is... I can't hear you. So sorry about that. I was like, I think there's some disturbance in the forest. I think you're back. Are we back? Yes. go back to what I said last, just that I was thinking, you some people also have the fear, like if they're writing a book or write an essay, someone else has already said this. And it's, I just think like... Every idea needs to be said a million times through each person's illustrations, each person's storytelling style. It comes out at a certain time when people catch it. Like everything we, we're all saying the same things over and over again. And that is actually what social movements are is like this, like, and it can be very tiring being in movements because we all have to say like, how many times have I explained to somebody why I'm an abolitionist and not a police reformer? And I will be saying that for the rest of my life because lots of people haven't heard it yet and deserve a chance to have that. conversation. anyway, just, but the one thing, the final thing I'll say that you're, that you made me think of is that experience when we revisit something we wrote a while ago. I'm currently writing and like they want to publish a new edition of Mutual Aid and a new edition of my first book, Normal Life. And so rereading these things and trying to decide, like trying to reflect, A, letting the contents alone. Like I wouldn't say that quite this way again, because it's, you in the case of normal life, I wrote that in 2009, it's many years later. But on the other hand, like, like reflecting on what has changed since I wrote those things and how I'm different. It's very, it's a very juicy process and I love reading people's new editions and seeing like a preface that like summarizes what happened in between or why these ideas are working differently now and so I'm hoping that it'll be useful. I'm much more intimidated by the normal life one because it's a much longer time period and so much has happened in trans politics. and so much of it is so painful. But I have to know, how long did you and your co-author get together? Did you go somewhere else? Were you in Duluth? Please set the scene. love this. my God. I also have so many things to say about what you just said. I feel like just my brain is sparking off in 500 different directions. Before I tell you that, which I will totally, I'm happy to tell you, um but what I think that is so valuable what you said and I so agree and that's why I reminded myself too when I write is like. I, you know, this is not like I'm such a Gen Xer, like we don't need to have Highlander syndrome, right? There can be only one, you know? And it's like, think sometimes we can get into that mentality because that's dominant culture, right? The tokenization, the extraction from minoritized folks. And I'm like, we need all of us. We need all the voices, all the stories. We don't all have all the pieces. That's okay. And so I love what you just said. And I really want to, like you said, we do need to say things more than once. I really want to reinforce that for folks out there that it's like, if you have something to share, share it because uh the people that you're talking to need to hear it exactly the way you say, and it will be different from the way somebody else says it, even if the foundations are similar, if that makes sense. So I love that you said all of that. uh And it's interesting that we had similar struggles and like, who am I to write this? And sometimes people have to remind me, well, not only have the credentials of like to write this. And also, like, you've been thinking about this for a long time. And I also don't think I love that you wrote this as just somebody who's committed to thinking about relationships in this broader world and not just as a, you know, somebody who's like a therapist. Like, so I think there's values in both. Anyway, going to your question. So I just want to preface that the way Meg-John and I write, I could not write like that by myself or with other people. Because we usually do write it all drafted like a week to 10 days for how to understand which is uh really not common. And I don't know how we do it. There's just some magic that happens in our coming together and writing that I don't even comprehend to be completely honest. I am not able to write books that fast by myself, just to be clear. um And so we usually get together somewhere that's not either of our terms, if that makes sense. And also because often we try to meet in the middle or if I'm going to Europe to like, this is my mom in Italy or do something for work, right? We try to get together so that we can catch up or write if we're working on a project together. um apart from during the pandemic when we did it online, we wrote to how to understand your sexuality was written online. And so we were somewhere else. We were in this beautiful place in Galicia and we were being hosted by another lovely queer person, Anna, who has this beautiful place, just loves our work and is friends with Meg-John So we stayed there. Other times we've had Airbnbs, but... This time I was really grateful um that we could stay like Anna's place and that they took such good care of us too while we were there and let us do our thing. But then also we cooked dinner together in the evening and had little bit of community as well, which was really wonderful. uh But we do kind of really try to take ourselves out of our day to day. there's a lot of distractions in the day to day. Like when we wrote How to Understand Your Sexuality online during the beginning of the pandemic, because the pandemic is still going on, of course, um it was much harder because we were both in our spaces. I still had demands of like, you know, it's harder to uh unplug from the demands of parenting when you are in the space where your kids are. Even if you're not available during the time you're writing, right? It doesn't, at least for me, it doesn't land the same monotropic focus where I just leave and breathe this book for like a week, 10 days, two weeks. And that's a huge privilege, but it's always been so helpful. And even when I was writing Gender Trauma, there were pieces where I had to take myself out um of my house, even if it was like for a weekend, go visit somebody or I'll see it or... uh, just take myself out of my day to day and, just leave and breathe and have nightmares, uh, or whatever it was from the books. I have to say while I was writing, I had to understand your relationships. I had a few nightmares because we were also writing about family and origin. So trauma came up. So it's not an easy process. I don't know if that makes sense, but, uh, I do find that if I can unplug from my day to day life, it does make it easier. And now that. I can travel with less ease. trying to figure out how do I create that bubble without as much travel, if that makes sense. But I really need that full immersion. I leave, breathe this book while I'm at a certain stage of the writing, if that makes sense. uh Yeah. gotten so much harder. You know, I have a full time job teaching at a law school and then I have like a million, you know, things I do in community and lots of working groups and mutual aid work and supporting and stuff. And so I've always find it. like I have this huge stack of, you know, emails and things all the time to deal with. um and I used to at different times over the years, a couple of times I had gone to like writing residencies where I would be more offline away from that stuff, but as everything's gone online, especially in last five years, even if I can carve out that kind of time and go somewhere else, it doesn't really work as well because I'm on a thousand Zoom meetings and I'm doing, no matter where I am. So I am struggling with that and also noticing that my attention has changed my level of distractibility. And there's so many great books about this and so much good information out there about just like how kind of like what we can do to care for our attention and our focus. And I'm just noticing right now as I'm working on writing projects this summer, in addition to like 10,000 community projects, how much I need to come back and do kind of a evaluation and track practice shift around some of those habits. I really hear that and a lot of things shared that because and honestly, of my actually all of my general public books have been reading after I left academia. I have to say I used to be an academic and I've been in a peer reviewed papers and book chapters and and I agree like when you know when you're in the academic environment, it's really nigh to impossible in my experience to really unplug in that way. And so yeah. since leaving academia in 2015. It's like my creativity just got unleashed also because I felt very compressed or constricted in academia to write in a certain way. And I'm curious about your process actually of like, as you are an academic and you also write books that are accessible to the general public. that balance, right? Do you have those moments where you're like, if I write this book about relationships and my field is different, like, is there going to be some judgment from colleagues or the field or like, I'm just really curious about the relationship between your academic, I mean, and I love your academic work. It's how I first came across your work was through your academic work. But do you ever feel tension between the academic world and the academic world work that you do? in the movement organizing community work, writing for the community that you do. Does that question make sense? Yeah, yeah, for me, it's like I've never been very tied to academia. you know, I started out, I got a job. I was a poverty lawyer and I sometimes wrote things because I love because I like you. I feel this need to like, you know, say stuff. I was I wrote zines and then sometimes somebody would invite me to write something for an academic journal. So I would just write it like usually because of the invitation, not because I thought and then I would just make it into a PDF or a zine or whatever. Like because I know people can't get my paywalls. And so it's kind of random. And then I very randomly ended up with an academic job. Mainly I was working in like a collective organization. I wanted to cycle out as staff because we had like, you only a few people could get paid at any given time and most of us were unpaid. And so I was like, this is like, I got like a teaching fellowship and I like, this will be a short term thing. But at that time, like, No trans no out trans person had ever been hired as a law professor in United States. So I was like, obviously, I won't get a job. And then I did got a job at a very like, not elite law school where m I knew that I was not going to do the things that are expected of law professors like law professors are literally just supposed to publish law review articles, which nobody needs which are behind a paywall and are like incredibly long and boringly structured. So from the beginning, I was like, I was working on normal life. was like, I already never was writing the stuff that that like gets you credit in that world. But I also trying to get like a better job as a law professor because I don't care about that world. It's literally just my day job. I really love my students. I love teaching, but I don't care about legal academia. I mean, there's some people, there's like a handful of people in legal academia doing abolitionist work or doing critical race theory. And I care a lot about those people, but I don't have any internal need to be seen in that world as legitimate, which I would, my work is so not legitimate in that world. couldn't be worse than to publish a relationships self Help book that has the word fuck in the title. mean, like, it's like, could, it's like, you know, I don't think my school knows what to do with me, but also like, that's okay with me because my, I mean, yeah, they really discourage writing books even because they want you just to write. It's like, I just, I think I share the story because I actually know a lot of people who I think become very tortured. by they have beautiful ideas and then they do something like go to graduate school or get it could even be another thing not academia but when you get immersed in a job and then you assess yourself through those lenses and lose sight of like whatever you actually think you're trying to do with this incredibly short life, it's deadly. And for me, it's been really awesome because when I've been being like harassed at my job, because you can imagine, mean, I'm, you know, openly anti Zionist, the only trans person that most people have ever met when I'm having bath and, you know, I'm supporting students who are dealing with anti black racism and we're doing organizing on campus. You can imagine how much some of my people are not like me and I don't, It's so deeply awesome to be like, really don't care how I'm seen here, except for by people who are right on. Like I'd love to have genuine connection with anyone here who wants that and everybody else. I'm not for you and like that's not, and I think that is so key like for whatever any of us are doing, because most of us are in some kind of job that is not values based. We're being paid by our opponents in some way if we've got a paid job. And so how to like be in something and not of it. And I think that's especially hard. for academics, they're like putting their name. It's like very, it's like a, it's a whole like fiction about like self, about individuality. I think it can be hard for artists, know, a variety of people who, where the work is, is individualized like that. It's really hard to be like this actually, this world, its values, like that's not what I go by. And I think it's made, it's the only reason that job has been tolerable for me is because I feel pretty like, I'm just like, I'm here to either support student organizing, directly support students in learning radical or liberatory ideas, and like get a paycheck that I can redistribute in my community. And like, that's it. And I'm not gonna let it determine much else about how I spend my time. Oh, I love that so much. It's also so interesting because it's like, as I was listening to you, I was like, yeah, that makes complete sense. uh And as I was waking up to academia as a colleague, I went into academia pretty young. was like my way out in a lot of ways of like my family and class mobility and also like escaping family of origin and country of origin. for lots of different reasons. And so it took me a minute to be like, on, academia. And then when I moved to the so-called US, it was even worse because academia here is a total different thing. Like I think if I was still in Europe, I would probably still have an academic job to be completely honest, to go with my writing. here is so, and when you succeed, it gets worse, right? Especially because I was like in public health or school of medicine. I've worked in both of the universities in Minnesota. And the success there is you become a grant writer and you bring more and more money into the university. And then even, you know, I had an NIH grant and then I got invited to do some grant review. And that was like my wake up moment of like, oh, people are never going to put money in my communities the way I need them to put money in my communities to truly do the work. This is just its own like, you know, industrial complex. And of course I also, you know, was relying. on my employer for my visa and they kept delaying sponsoring my green card. That's a whole other story. And so it was really interesting how that positionality then the minute that I filed for my green card independently in the end. And I was like, okay, I'm free. I was like, I can't do this anymore. And I think if I had a different relationship or a different time, I might have had because I agree with you. And I remember one of my mentors looking at me and going, it's just a job. And if it's like this painful. like, is it really worth it? was like, yes. And that's when I took all my savings and gave them to a lawyer to figure out my green card, you know, and then I was free to write. And so it's really interesting also how we managed to do the work of our heart in community while trying to navigate capitalism, right? I feel like I've been thinking about this a lot as an aging disabled trans person who now finally has citizenship privilege. at least until they take it away, hopefully not, know, feels nothing is certain right now. And so, yeah, now that it's so interesting how we all find ways to survive in those systems, right? One way or another. And yes, nobody, mean, apart of your soup, unless you're like Stephen King or something, very few authors can make money from their books. We all have jobs, as far as I know. to make a book and a podcast, right? Because it's like you're doing work to try to reach people and then none of that, I mean, if you go on tour, you, all of it. And I think that that people don't know that, which is understandable. People are like, you're selling something else and making money. I've been really thinking about this because me and the people I'm making the podcast with, we just decided to start a Patreon. And... It's like I've never done that kind of thing before. I've always, if I make money through giving a speech or something, I always give that money to usually people in prison, sometimes like grassroots mutual aid projects. I'm really, redistribution of wealth is a really big part of my practice for a long time. So what does it mean to raise money for this? But there's one person working on the podcast who I really wanna be able to pay a small amount monthly. And... m And we have some expenses related to podcasts and also like everyone's jobs who's working on the podcast are pretty endangered right now because of the stuff that's going on. And so just this question of like, oh my God, like, yeah, like how do you hustle to get by and what happens when your hustle ends and what's the, you know, all of us, our shared purpose is just to get out radical ideas that support our movements and... Yeah, and none of that is work that's paid and it's, yeah, it's really complicated. It's like, it's really, and I think I see this a lot, you know, with young people ask me this question a lot about how to like survive. their values, especially because I really discourage people from being lawyers. I talk openly about some of the limits of academia, nonprofits and stuff and what it's like. The main thing I think is, which is very hard, having the lowest expenses possible. Not being too big a consumer is really helpful. Of course, many of us have dependents, so that's unavoidable. Many of us have particular expenses related to disability and other specific things. But as much as possible, collectivizing our well-being living with groups if that's possible. That's the kind of stuff radicals have always done to survive. And living inexpensively as possible, which is very hard. Rent and food and everything is higher than it's ever been. It's unreal how expensive life is. But I think that that's like, what's hard is people have been sold an idea that social justice is a career and that everybody should have a certain set of... really expensive lifestyle things and it's really a trap and yeah, it's painful and I don't, it's like I don't want people, I think I'm worried people comes off like, you're like this old person telling me to not wanna own a house or something and I'm just like, I don't know, like it just depends, like you have one short life, like. you gotta pick what you're gonna put your time into and there are no guarantees and we're all living in a system that's unraveling and crumbling. It's very painful to try to, and also because most radical work will be unpaid, like all the mutual aid work is unpaid and the writing and the media work and the artwork, it's very rare to get paid and I think that's painful to just really face that. Absolutely. I love we're talking about this. I had that moment of like, oh, are we talking about the right things in air quotes? And I was like, what the hell are the right things? We're talking about whatever we want to talk about. feel like, I was like, cause I looked at the time and I was like, oh, there were all these other things I wanted to talk to you about the book. But I think this is an important conversation actually, cause I've been thinking about this a lot and I live in an international household and you know, one of my kids is a young adult and she. I have consent to talk about some of the things uh in our life from her as well. She talks about, I don't know if I'll ever be able to own a house, or what does it mean for her as a Gen Z-er, who's like early 20s. And also it's interesting to see the judgment sometimes even from radical activists or people in community about the fact that, our... uh, polycule, our household has had the privilege to support our kid, our neurodivergent kid to like go through college with a part-time job rather than a full-time job. Right. I, I've done the life of working like 24, seven, what was a weekend? I could not tell you throughout all my twenties and, and firties actually even. And now it's questionable. My family would say, do you know what any weekend is? And it's like, sometimes, uh, you know, and, um, But I feel like even in community, sometimes we have those values, but then somehow all our trauma comes up when we see, for example, young people getting parented in an affirming or supportive way. Or when we see, uh you know, we have a friend and we've been talking about wanting to make sure that we build like a tiny home on where we live so that they can stop like. you know, they're disabled, they really shouldn't be working anymore. But how do you not work, you know, and survive in this world because you need to not work for at least four or years before you're even considered for disability benefits. This is a reality. People don't even understand how, you know, sometimes people are like, oh, why don't you just apply for disability benefits? I was like, do you even know how that works? I was like, that's the reason why so many disabled folks like hassle so hard being self-employed, right? um But I think even kind of within radical community, sometimes that can be, especially with white queer folks in my experience, white Anglo queer folks, a failure of imagination of how we could live differently, right? Or people are like, I tried living collectively, I hated it. And I was like, well, yeah, me too. I tried it, I failed, right? Exactly. we're all so afraid of conflict. We're all so afraid of vicious conflict that we pay a million times more rent than we need to and don't share cooking and don't, know, like the level of the default to isolation right now in our culture, that being afraid of other people, mostly just because we're afraid of feedback and conflict is actually like... really impoverishing people like materially and because partly just have the support we need around parenting around disability around aging and I love that you said that because I'm like, and I find that so many people can only think about relationship in this transactional way. Even like when I talk about like, hey, let's get organized with some more community care, right? And sometimes we're like, let's do a spreadsheet of skills we have to offer. I'm like, that is not what I'm talking about. I mean, like, sure, we can also make a spreadsheet. But I find that sometimes even with beloved Anglo queer folks who have all this values, they're like, they're still think about trans relationships as very transactional, right? You have the skill, I have the skill, we do a direct exchange, right? Or, and I think that's the piece I'm really interested in when, and why I love your book as well, it's like, cause this is not just about our personal relationship, and I love that you talk about the person as political, which of course I was raised initially a second wave feminist, which of course I'm not anymore, but you know, I got out of that thinking, but. That was very much for me from feminism, right? The personal is political, like, and that never left for me. And yet I so agree with you. We impoverish ourselves, we impoverish our communities. And so what you think are the skills that we need to really not keep encountering like this, like, conflict avoidance, if we want to call it that, right? Or fear of conflict. to use less clinical language. But I think a piece of it is I'm doing white supremacy as well. But what you think is needed in our communities to start em going back to this beautiful experience, which many failed of collective living, I understand. But I think there's still a need for us to figure this out. that, am I making sense? Yeah, I mean, I think there's like, like many skills, but some of the ones that are coming up a lot for me right now, and I'm facilitating groups and working with things in this book, like, I mean, one thing this book is about is just emotional awareness, like, do I know that I'm having a strong feeling? And can I be like, Dean, like, you're scared right now, or they're shame or there's anxiety or there's anger because even just knowing I'm having a strong feeling might give me like that millimeter meter pause before I write you a mean text or storm out or think that this group isn't for me or, you know, like, and then being curious about that feeling the deeper work of like, have I felt this before? Am I feeling a familiar role? It reminds me of stuff in my family or in school or, you know, all those questions, but just that first thing of like, I'm having a strong reaction right now. That's one skill. think another one I'm focusing on a lot is like, can I, if you're having a strong feeling in front of me, what happens? Do I check out? Do I give you a bunch of advice to try to shut you up? Do I join your strong feeling? And I'm like, yeah, they're terrible. Let's get them. Let's kick them out of the group. You know, kind of what are my habits and could I... gain a skill of being like, okay, I'm hearing Alex, I'm saying that sounds really hard. I'm neither ramping you up to a revenge fantasy, nor telling you you have to feel better and minimizing. then if you're having a kind of wave of feeling in front of me, and as a part of your community, I help. hold that with you, you might not tear off and go like do something really disorganizing in our community or leave and never come back or whatever. um And then the next level is if you're having a strong feeling at me, if you're like, Dean, you really suck, you shouldn't have done this, or I'm really mad at you, I'm disappointed, can I still hold on to myself? when you're and know like Alex is talking about me, but in a lot of ways they're talking about their own experience. You know, I feel defensiveness coming up. feel fear. Can I get support from others? Like, do I have options instead of just like toe to toe? I'm gonna, you know, do my first reaction. Like that skill set is like another one I'm talking about a lot right now. And a lot of that is about... conflict avoidance and just learning like what are my habits? I run towards conflict? Do I run away? Do I freeze up? Do I become the fixer? know, like just knowing in groups, you know, what, what, do I default to? And because the things that might feel safe or easy are often not happening in this reality. And then we all get into our little roles and then we do a family drama. And now our group mutual aid project has gone down the tubes. So that's an I mean, a lot of them are about emotional awareness, feedback, know, giving and receiving direct feedback, not being afraid. Like I think most of us withhold it. I don't mention the dishes 10 times in a row and then I blow up at you or I, you know, move out or whatever. And could I instead practice like on both sides, like. Hey, I wanna have a friendship where we tell each other things and when you're late to meet me for dinner, sometimes I feel like, you know, sad or angry. We talk about it and you are practicing like, okay, Dean's not saying I'm the worst person ever. He's just, you know, can I try on hearing what Dean's saying and maybe getting some support for another friend if I'm kind of going off. Can I just listen right now and tell Dean I heard him? Like all that basic stuff, which it relates to the way we, operationalize white supremacy and ableism and sexism at each other. But that's the like, I think what happens is that sometimes people are like, I'm gonna go look for sexism in myself, I'm gonna go look for racism. It's not labeled racism and sexism inside. It's labeled, Alex doesn't like me enough, or uh why did they all have a drink without me after the meeting or like, Usually it's I'm actually feeling victimized when I'm about to do something that others may experience as aggressive or harmful. So learning about my own states is a way of trying to bring my behavior more in line with my values. Part of that is most of us can't even look at all the times It's not because we feel like my god if I found out that I actually do racist stuff all the time And I do sexist stuff it would be so devastating instead of just like yeah, of course I do everyone does Everyone's out of alignment. Everyone's practicing that it's once I realize how imperfect we all are I can more easily like let you know that you were imperfect and it was hard for me apologize when you mentioned to me, hey Dean, saw something happen. didn't feel good. Like kind of like letting go of some of the perfectionism so that we might have like an authentic exchange when things go sideways, which they constantly do because we were raised in this poison, you know. Absolutely. And I love that you're talking about conflict. I love conflict intimacy. And I remember when I moved to the West, especially living in the Midwest, people were like, what? What did you just say? I was like, intimacy. When you're close enough to somebody, I think in community and movement organizing, that's so important. Are we connected enough and trust each other enough that if we have a rupture? we can talk through it and repair and that we're committed to each other's wellbeing, not just our own individual, but our collective wellbeing. And that takes a lot of practice. And also I've been, I'm also intrigued culturally the number of times where I think I'm addressing like a small rapture, right? So I might text a friend like, uh hey, when you have capacity, can we talk about something that happened at this event? Because... I had little bit of a feeling, no big deal, so I don't feel urgency, you know. And all of a sudden I might be like, you know, there's a very strong response and I'm like, okay, I want to understand. I'm like, and all of a sudden I'm in conflict in air quotes. And maybe it's because I live in the Midwest, I don't know. But all of a sudden I was like, is this conflict? I was just being like authentic and letting you know so that this doesn't accumulate, right? I don't want things to fester. But it's really hard because... One of the things I realized after many, years of reflection of like, what's happening in this pattern? I was like, oh, if Anglo white folks in the US need to be so upset to say something, they think that if I'm saying something, I must be raging inside. In the bad times, was like, whoa, whoa, you feel so strongly. was like, oh, do I? I mean, I'm passionate about this. guess, yeah. Because I was growing up in a culture at a time where it's like the... you know, lots of big feelings, lots of loudness, you know, in Southern Italy. And it's just, you know, and you can also like be upset with each other. That doesn't mean you're like, don't love each other or don't care about each other. Right. And so exactly. I think people are like, if there's one thing Alex doesn't like about me, it's over. And I'm like, let's not, community works. That's not our friendships work. And I remember even a friend going, how can you keep showing up in community? Like, and I don't, there are people I don't like. was like, yeah, there are people I don't like. was like, community is not for like, everybody's my best friend. We, yes. most things are kind of uncomfortable, boring. I'm really curious. Okay, I'm gonna sound like such a classic American right now, but I had this experience of visiting Italy, because my book, Mutual Aid, came out in Italian, and I was hosted by these amazing, brilliant, radical people who published it, and we went to maybe four or five different towns, and I did events. And my experience was that the events were very multi-generational. People had incredibly long attention spans, stayed for, they wanted to have like a three hour event, listen to me doing, you know, it was a back and forth translation. So it's like, that's kind of hard to listen that way. And people would be 85 there and ask like a brilliant question. And they were like teenagers, nobody was looking at a phone. And I was just kind of like, is social culture like a bit more intact? And also most people I met, even if they were super radical, had returned to live in their hometown. Even if they'd gone somewhere else to study, there was also a lot of people from Southern Italy having to move north for jobs and all the things, all the complexities of economic systems were under. But I just really noticed that it was very different to talk about ideas together and that people just seemed to have more time for each other and for people who were different from them, especially in terms of age, which was, you don't see that a lot in the US. And anyway, I was just curious, like, you have, you really have been immersed in both cultures. Yeah, no, I think that's a great question. And my caveat is that I immigrated in 1993. It really ages me when I was 22. So I was born and brought up. did my first degree in Italy. And my mom and family are still there. So I do return. But definitely when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s, absolutely, I think it is changing. I mean, obviously it's changing. under fascism again, which I never thought I would see in my lifetime in Italy, given that it's written in our constitution that the fascist party could never reform, but people find ways around it. Anyway, so that aside, yes, especially in the South of Italy, I think there is still more of a relational culture and more of a multi-generational culture. that everything you said to me makes so much more sense. Because I feel like when I'm with people, I'm with people. People are not looking at their phone. I'm not in any doubt whether they're engaged with me or not. Whereas when I'm here in the States, I'm always like, do you wanna talk with me? Are you looking for somebody more interesting to talk with? Or we are at a book event and we're just getting into it. And I'm like, okay, one hour is up and the bookstore has to close. And I'm even like, let's go over to like the, you know. the brewery that's got food and it's open for another two hours. And people don't think I'm genuine. I'm like, no, really, like, if you all came with me to eat pizza, like, I would have kept this conversation going because this is just getting good. We've all gotten a little more comfortable with each other and we're just starting to have the really engaged conversations I want to have. And it is fair. think that there is a few things I've observed living both in the UK, but then and here on Turtle Island in the US specifically, there's like, there's so much siloing between generations, right? And it's like, and of course, as somebody who still shows up, I'm often like one of the oldest people, know, I'm in my mid fifties and some organizing with people in their mid fifties, a lot of the times, or at least 10 years younger, often, you know, if not 20, some of my friends are closer to my oldest kid's age and my age, right? And which in Italy, it's not even a Big deal, but here it does feel... Yes! beautiful part of life. I'm just like, and also it's very queer to be, mean, it's very queer to be like, yeah, I will be in the gay bar until I die. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. uh I was at this leadership symposium for one of my professional association in March when we were in San Diego and one of my joys was that it was like open, so I felt a little safer and we were dancing and everybody was like way younger than me. And there was somebody who was actually even older than I am as a family therapist. And initially he was like, oh, this is so exciting. Look at all those allies. And I was like, those are all trans and queer people too. And they were like, wow. And I was like, our field is really changing. was like, we were celebrating that the American Association of Marriage and Family Therapy had released free guidelines for working with trans, non-binary and gender expansive individuals and families, which a lot of us queer and trans folks have pushed for and have a position statement. you know, because they're one of the more conservative professional association historically for therapists in the U.S. And so it is a big moment of celebration that we're here in this place, right? And like, yeah, I was like in my Crocs, you know, with my cane on the dance floor. And I was like, this is church for me. I was like, I want to be 90 and still be able occasionally, not as often as I used to be in a gay bar and like dance it out and then leave when it gets too busy because now it's my bedtime, you know, or at least my quiet time. And it is very queer and I think it's beautiful. And I think I want more of it. And sometimes I'm scared that there's going to be less of it because everybody's so fearful, right? And there can be so much. And even the culture, there's some, I don't know, it's just so interesting to see what folks in queer movements are worried about, right? There's a lot of worry. What if I say the wrong thing? Or what if I'm seeing, and I'm like, you're going to say the wrong thing. We're all going to say the wrong thing. We're humans. We're not, we cannot be perfect. And we're not the same as each other. Like, it's like, you're wrong in my right, you know? I mean, think this too, I noticed, I love what you were saying about like, people talking to people and you feel like they're waiting to talk to somebody else. There's a actual thing, like the way queers hang out in the US, I notice it compared to in European countries that I've been to, where everyone's looking around in this particular way. And part of it, I'm like, yes, let's cruise, absolutely. But there's a kind of like distractedness at a level where, and when I've been spending time in Berlin and when I go to queer, and trans faces, people like show up at this big party but they really like hang deep with the people that they came there with and then also people are not on their phones hardly, I mean they all think they're on their phones too much but compared to the US, they're barely on their phones, no one's taking pictures or anything, you have to put like a sticker over your camera when you go to like these clubs in Berlin, like you're not allowed pictures in the club which I love. And also it's great because people have sex in the club, which is amazing. And then there's, people are not really on the apps. Like the dating apps are so much less popular. And I really love the idea. I mean, dating apps are wonderful and I've met many lovers there, but like it's really cool that people have maybe a little more like skillset for hanging out. Like what I noticed in general, I noticed it also with like radicals I meet of all ages when I'm in European countries. It's like people, and I think this may be true in many places in world, people just know how to just like hang out. You know, just like, let's like go sit in the cafe for five hours as opposed to like, feel like there's a anti-social vibe, a fear of others vibe in the US where it's like, okay, you're my dear friend, but I only have 90 minutes for you, Alex. Like there's a kind of like rigid fear of the intrusiveness of other beings. And I want to like not judge anybody for having these feelings. I think we're inundated and we're overwhelmed and we're taught to be afraid and competitive with each other in lots of ways. But I am like, Is there anything we could do to support like social skill building that lets us be more accepting of other people being different from us that lets us like encounter people in our groups and communities and even if they're not our favorite, like still hang out and be chill and like make a warm space, like not be clickish, not be social climbing. Like I get a lot of complaints from young organizers I work with that they are experiencing clickishness in the groups they're in and it's undermining their ability, like their coolness hierarchy. it's undermining their ability to like make a big group like on their campus or in their town. So it's like, I'm just like, can we recognize that we are like deeply social beings and this is being taken from us by this mediation, I think especially through social media and like. we need each other, like we need to be connected online as well, of course, for many reasons, but we also really need live connections for support around health and illness and the next pandemic and the current pandemic and the time you get arrested and when we're trying to stop ICE, like we really need like live connection skills in person as part of the picture. And that is like, we're losing it fast, you know? Oh my God, I feel like could talk to you about that. I could talk about this for another five hours, but I want to be so respectful of your time. And I think that's part of the point that I feel like here, like it's almost like time is money, right? In air quotes, that kind of thing. I always feel like I'm intruding on people time, even when I'm hanging out with them and I'm enjoying it. I'm always, and part of that is like my own neurodivergence and never, especially if I'm lacking the social cues, then I'm like, Do you wanna keep hanging out? Do you not wanna keep hanging out? Maybe you do need to go back to work because we all live under capitalism. Maybe I need to go back to work because I'm way too busy trying to balance paid work with like, you know, still like mentoring and community building and all the other things, which is not an easy em juggle to do as like as having chosen kind of more the self-employed row in the last 10 years. um But I think there is a piece of that that is just also giving each other some sort of uh grace is such a loaded word because it's so Christian. But I am so interested in hearing what you think about also the necessity for a little more patience with each other. So for example, when I was hearing you talk about like the emotional awareness, right? I'm somebody who doesn't always recognize my emotion immediately and now I know why. Because, know, so, and even as a therapist, if I'm a somatic experience, a practitioner, I've done so much work on my interoception, my capacity to perceive my internal states. And still, sometimes I'm like, oh, my first emotion might be like, this is fine. And then one or two days later, I'm like, actually, can we revisit this conversation? I'm not, like, there are some part, I, you know, I have some questions or I noticed this other emotion come up. And sometimes it's mad like, but you were fine. Right. And I'm like, I know. And also, you know, I even had a partner who loved telling me all the ways in which I was so autistic in airports. And then when I did something with this thing, they were super upset, like not recognize my emotion immediately. Right. Then they would be super upset because while I was fine and now I'm bringing this up again, two days later, I was like, yes, because two days later I know better how I feel than I did two days ago. You know, and, and, And so does that make sense? And also like, yeah, yeah, go ahead. Sorry. that doesn't want us to know our feelings and that makes so many feelings unacceptable. So I think so many of us struggle to identify what's happening. Exactly. And sometimes it's also a processing thing, right? We want to move fast and not all of us move fast. Or like when we're in community with older folks, one of my beloved, like we're family and friends and elders 20 years older than me, and also living with the impact of like, you know, early HIV medication, you know, and being in their mid seventies. you know, in that experience in, you know, in community, when this started not to show up, in a way that made sense to younger people, a lot of like, you know, almost like there was this talk of like, yes, we need to honor our elders. And I'm like, there's an elder right here that you're kind of treating like shit. And then you are assuming what they mean. You have no patience around the cognitive stuff, you know, and they're very open talk about this. So feel okay sharing this because at that moment I was like, should I share this? I was like, no, this was very public. I feel okay. sharing this and, I'm seeing even with myself as I age, I'm like, yeah, my impulse control is not as good. And I am getting a little more impatient, a little like less filtered at times. And if there isn't that skill or that curiosity even, or even like, Hey, like what's going on? Like, right. I think there is an expectation that we all act the same no matter our age. Right. And I'm like, well, we're not all gonna act the same. And also like even the impatience to have kids around, know, my kids have always been around movement space and some people are like, you're bringing your kid to like this meeting or this. I'm like, yeah, what am I gonna do? You know, and does that make sense? It's like, you know, and we haven't even touched on the cool queers, like it's that issue. So, but yeah, what's the role do you think of like patience, grace, like? being a multi-generational community takes some of that and building community generally takes some of that, I think. God, yeah, I mean, I love that you're saying this. I mean, think, I mean, and also I just want to be real. People are not doing well right now. Like people are really, really struggling and it's just going to get worse for the rest of our lives. So that I think for me, a real aim of my healing is to be more flexible and accepting of others. because I want to be part of groups. one thing that happens in groups is that people flip out. People really freak out. The group dynamics are really hard or they really wanted to be seen and understood in this group and they're not, or they had somebody on a pedestal or had a breakup or whatever. And they're freaking out and they're doing... difficult things and I want to support that person instead of participating in us all talking trash about them and stigmatizing them. I don't want to let them do whatever they want to the group or to other people. And so how do we, I guess what I am interested in, also don't want, I don't want to be, I don't want to pretend I'm okay with things that I'm not, right? Cause I also have a peasing side. So I don't want to just get doormat. So my goal is to, for my own healing is to find that combination of becoming increasingly flexible yet grounded. So I can say, You know, yeah, I'm going to spend 30 minutes hearing this person rant. And also I know that 30 minutes is the limit or I'm going to know when to when to leave or when to hang up the call or how many times a week or how many times a month I can do this. But I want to be helpful to people who are difficult and who are difficult for me. Sometimes I meet someone and there is nothing wrong with them, but I want to run screaming because they remind me of my first foster mother or because I'm my body mind is having a reaction. to something that they're like and I want to like be like, Dean, like I care about you, your reaction is okay, let's think about how much of this we want to do with them. I don't need to become their boyfriend and I also don't need to get them kicked out of the group, you know, like, and so what I want for all of us is to, I think one thing that's happening with like the kind of memification of self-help, people are like, I know what I don't like and I don't have to do it. And there's kind of like a, people are getting the boundaries thing only just as far as now that I know what activates me, Alex, you have to not do it. Like a kind of like, this is a new menu of me trying to control my environment and other people. That's not what boundaries and awareness of activation is for. What it's for is I'm like, wow, I have a strong feeling when Alex says or does this thing. That's my feeling. I can make requests of Alex. They can say yes or no. I can think about what works for me in the relationship if Alex isn't able to take my request or isn't able right now or not as much as I want. But don't just get to tell you what to do because I found out that I've got a trigger. uh All of this. Oh, I so agree. And then to be able to know that we are that person for other people, right? Because it's like, I know I will be a difficult person for somebody else. I know that the way I am is going to be hard for other people, is going to be triggering. And so can I offer, like, can I offer myself that kindness, can I offer other people that kindness, right? And curiosity and gentleness, because it's like sometimes I will, I mean, I agree. I'm a thousand percent with everything you said and don't even get me started on the weaponization of boundaries ah or the confusing safety for comfort. And cause that's all we could be here for the next six hours, truly. um But there is this piece also that's like the self protection, which I totally understand comes from trauma and I've been there and how it keeps us from being relational. And I'm worried about that too, cause I agree. I think things are only going to get harder. I mean, we're seeing it. It's like, don't even, if I talk about it right now, I think I'm going to cry about not the things that have been going on all through colonization. And there are some things that are happening in this moment that are hard. It's a both end for me. And how do we find this way of being with each other that is not so treating folks as disposable or, you know, uh Susan Raffo once said in a meeting when we were out together, like the differentiation between community of convenience and community of need, right? And for me, I feel like my trans and queer communities and my geographical community where I live is a community of need, not a community of convenience. don't, you know, I don't. want to feel disposable and I don't want to see other people as disposable, even when it's really hard, even when maybe I walk into a neighbor's house and there's a MAGA calendar. And what do I do in that moment? Do I just storm out and be like, ah, you've stopped being a human for me, right? Or do I take a deep breath and like, OK, this is information you're finding out about this person, neighbor, person in your community. And let's just be with the information and figure out what we want to do with this information. uh You know, and sell treat this person as a human, even in this moment where quite frankly, it's incredibly hard as a trans person to be in that situation, which I've been to because it's like, you know, Duluth is beautiful and it's still a city and it's like north enough that there is more also conservative folks than in... You know, Minneapolis, for example, it's a both end. know, oh I don't know. I hope I'm making sense, but it's yes, we need all those skills. oh if we haven't even got, I wanted to talk to you about the gender side of relational labor and we haven't even got there and talking about boundaries. want to respect our time boundary. Also, because it's kind of late, I think where you are right now, but maybe we can have a... Part two where we talk about relationships and gender because I would... Okay, okay. how do I not already know you is also, I feel like we have been living in the same ideas for decades and yeah, we must know a hundred people in common. Yeah, anyway. I know, I was having the moment, was like, oh, I bet there were like two degrees of separation somewhere. Absolutely, yes. Oh, I'm so glad. I feel the same. at this age to still meet. There's still other radical queers obsessed with the same things as me who I haven't even met yet. That's like, cause you know, in our time there was a like sometimes a real feeling of loneliness about some of these identities and experiences. So yeah, it's very sweet. Oh, a hundred percent. And it is a genuine invitation to like, I definitely want to have that part two conversation about, you know, relationship and gender and care labor as gender care, as gendered labor. But I'm going to like rein my enthusiasm in and remember that it's kind of late in the evening where you are. And instead kind of transition us a little bit towards ending this episode. But, and it was so much. I feel the same. like, how have we never met? I was like, we have so many values in common. So one of the questions I have to rein my brain in because literally I want to ask 500 other questions, but one of the questions I've been asking all of my like, guests, especially like trans folks at the moment is how are you finding comfort or joy or nourishment, especially right now? I think it just feels really important to share with each other. how are we finding, I don't know, the fuel for one of a better world to keep going right now. through that kind of comfort, connection, pleasure, whatever is bringing you a sense of support and joy, if that makes sense. and nourishment. You know, I really rely heavily on a silent meditation practice because... ah It's so hard to integrate everything that's happening. And there's such an onslaught of information. And sometimes I feel myself over consuming and information about what's going on that affects people I love and There's so little time to digest it. And I think. We're in this important month in the Jewish calendar right now called Elul. And it's like the month before the high holidays where you sort of spiritually gather yourself to assess the year and make repair with people and stuff. And there's like a particular text that I read every day during Elul. And it has this idea in it that no matter how much no matter how difficult things are, there's a possibility of return. And for me, that connects to my meditation practice in this idea that in silent meditation, what I'm doing is my mind goes off in worries and then I return to the breath, if that's what I'm focusing on, or I start to think about what I should be doing later, or I start to worry about this thing in the past, or I start to remember something or want something, and I return. And there's this very simple thing like... returning to now. This is how it is now. I'm sitting in a chair. I'm talking to Alex. It's a little bit too warm. I can feel my feet on the ground, whatever it is, you know? Like, I don't know, just it's, things are super bad and they're getting so much worse and I have a very strong view of this and. Mm-hmm. It's amazing to be alive. It's amazing to be breathing. It's amazing to be connected to others. It's amazing to find work you want to do towards our liberation, even though none of us know how it's going to turn out. It's like, for me, there's something in the return of just like, at a basic level, for now, this is how it is. How is it? I can, I'm breathing. I don't know. That's, that's where I'm at right now. No, I love that it's beautiful and I really resonate with that as somebody who practices a lot of being here, you know, and holding both, like the reality of how bad things are, which I agree. um And right now here I am having the most amazing conversation, you know, connecting with somebody who has such similar values and there is joy in this moment and I can feel both the joy and the heartbreak and the fear. and they're all present and that's okay. Right. So I love that you shared that. Thank you. And the last question that I always ask all my guests is, is there anything we haven't talked about that you were really hoping we would talk about? Which of course we could always do in a different episode, but anything we haven't talked about that or anything that you really want to reinforce or communicate to the listeners or watchers if people are watching. I love that we just let it go where it was gonna go. It's perfect, you know? And I do think, I hope we'll have many more conversations over the course of our lives. I'm really excited about reading your book and really grateful to you for reading mine and for asking me to have this conversation and for your openness about your own. um like all the, like you just shared so many stories and that illustrated for me what you're trying to practice and it's really a gift and I'm grateful to you for making a podcast and I know it's not easy and like I bet it's really supporting a lot of people's wellbeing, so thank you. Thank you. Well, I have so much gratitude for this conversation. I love it when the conversation just flows. And so thank you for being willing to just like to truly have a conversation and be relational as we talk about relationships. So I so, so appreciate all the places we've gone. And for you dear Gender Stories listeners, viewers, I should say viewers rather than watchers. That's a much better word than English. So dear Gender Stories, listeners and viewers, I hope that you can find ways to take care of yourselves and take care of each other and really build relationship with intentionality so that we can all figure this thing called life together in some way, or form. And until next time.