In Conversation with Anne Mauro

Anne Mauro (she/her) is a Licensed Couples and Family therapist, American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors, and Therapist (AASECT) certified sex therapist, sexuality educator, sex therapy supervisor, and American Association of Marriage and Family Therapy (AAMFT) clinical supervisor. Her private practice is nestled in the interwebs on the unceded territory of the Coast Salish peoples in Washington State. She has two publications: More Than Ebony and Ivory: Complexities of sex therapy with interracial couples, can be found in An Intersectional Approach to Sex Therapy: Centering the lives of indigenous, racialized, and people of color and The Colonization of Black Sexualities: A clinical guide to relearning and healing. Anne is in continued service to the sexuality community by serving as the AASECT Western Representative to the nominating committee.  

Links: 

www.annemauro.com 

https://www.routledge.com/The-Colonization-of-Black-Sexualities-A-Clinical-Guide-to-Relearning-and/Mauro/p/book/9781032233680

https://www.instagram.com/iamannemauro/

Transcript

Alex Iantaffi  
Hello and welcome to another episode of gender stories. I know that I'm always like, excited and thrilled and elated, but I'm Extra extra excited today because I get to interview wonderful colleague and dear friend Anne Mauro. And let me tell you why Anne is so amazing and special. Anne is a licensed couples and Family Therapist, American Association of sexuality educators, counselors and therapists. AASECT certified sex therapist, sexuality educator, sex therapy supervisor and American Association of Marriage and Family Therapy clinical supervisor. Her private practice is nestled in the interwebs on the unceded territory of the Coast Salish people in Washington State. She has two publications: More Than Ebony and Ivory: Complexities of sex therapy with interracial couples, can be found in An Intersectional Approach to Sex Therapy: Centering the lives of indigenous, racialized, and people of color and The Colonization of Black Sexualities: A clinical guide to relearning and healing. Anne is in continued service to the sexuality community by serving as the AASECT Western Representative to the nominating committee.   And Anne is just one of the most wonderful, kind, generous and incredibly smart colleagues I know, so that's why I'm extra thrilled to have you with us for gender stories today and welcome.

Anne Mauro  
Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm extra honored because I know I'm a fan of the podcast, and hear me say, I know I always say this, and I'm like, Yeah, you always say that because you always have awesome guests on your podcast. So it's just an honor to be now a part of that roster of people.

Alex Iantaffi  
Oh, my God. I just feel honored that you've made the time for this, and I know that I love the mutual kind of love for each other's work and for each other that we have, and so hopefully we'll have a great conversation for our listeners as well, or folks who are watching maybe on YouTube now that put the podcast on YouTube as well as all the different podcasting platforms. So enough for that. Let's just really get into it. And I am really curious. We never talked about this actually, what drew you to sex therapy in the first place, right? I mean, I know you're a marriage and family therapist, but then you're really committed to our field, and you give so much to the field of sex therapy. So why sex therapy? Yeah, I

Anne Mauro  
think originally, what happened I was in community college, and I took a psychology class and a human sexuality class at the same time, and something kind of clicked in me, like, oh my gosh, I want to do something with these two things. And then at that time, when I thought it would be, would be more like forensics, I was really into sex crimes and understanding like the deviance around sexuality. And then I became a parent and had a little person I was taking care of. And as you know, sometimes you can't censor what you hear on the news, and I heard a news story that maybe pre motherhood wouldn't have activated me like it did, but it was then I decided, You know what, I don't think I can be in the criminalization of sex anymore. I think I would really like to help people with enrichment and pleasure and joy and not live in that dark space. So that's kind of how it started and evolved into me doing what I do now.

Alex Iantaffi  
I love that and and I also love that kind of trajectory, you know, which makes sense to me, because I feel like in psychology, sometimes there is more of an emphasis on like, what is different from the norm, right? What is more pathological, but then coming into this more expansive place? But what if we support people in being more liberated, in having more access to pleasure, right, having more connection and intimacy with themselves and each other? So I love that journey. And like I said, we never talked about this actually, in you are incredibly committed to the field. Tell me a little bit more about why it is so important for you to serve, like to serve in a professional association, to really serve in the field and bring that kind of that volunteer time, really, you know, on top of being a parent, of being a sex therapist and educator like my service is so important to you

Anne Mauro  
right now, professionally, I feel like I'm in my full blown Auntie space, right? I feel like there's a level of sex therapists that are coming up under us right, our supervisees, or just. A whole different generation that are having a different experience that you and I had because of people like you and I carving a space out for them. And so there wasn't somebody that really looked like me that was available for supervision for ASAC, and especially in Washington at the time, being able to provide that as a service, or to have leadership roles, right for one, for people to see me in a leadership role, I think, is really important so other people can see that it's possible for them, and then for my voice to be heard, and for hopefully, to keep making changes in the right direction, where everybody has a seat at the table.

Alex Iantaffi  
Absolutely. And I love that because, and for folks who don't know, historically, the field of sex therapy is very white, very cisgender, pretty straight, with a few exception, incredibly white. I know I'm saying this twice, but it's really worth saying twice. It is so deeply, you know, colonized in some way. And we'll talk about the decolonization of sexuality in a minute. And so I really feel the that importance right of representation, of showing folks who are kind of coming after us, like, no, there is a space for you. And actually, your voice is really, really essential. And so I really appreciate all that you give to the field and how important your presence in the field is. Speaking of which, let's talk about your publications. Because not only you give you know, you serve the field, you're a supervisor, you're a mentor. I've met some of your wonderful supervises and mentees, and they're incredible. And I'm just so excited about how the field is changing and what ASIC is today compared to 15 or 20 years ago. You know, we could talk about that, but we want, I would much rather talk about your work. For example, this wonderful book right here that I had the privilege to read even before it got published. And so the colonization of black sexuality, a clinical guide to relearning and healing that's published by Routledge. It is like, it seems like a small book, but it's so packed with amazing information, and before we got into it, why did you feel moved to write this book in the first place?

Anne Mauro  
Well, I had let me back this up, because I think this is actually important. I was not a studious kid in school. I'm really not sure how I got through public education. And like, history was non existent. I don't remember learning about even basic US history, right? And so and so the work that I've been doing post grad in these publications, has just been me trying to understand the history and how it's impacted modern day sexuality, right? So, so that was kind of my voyage, my history lesson. And then I was given the opportunity to talk just about how it impact, impacted black bodies when it came to this publication right here. Yeah,

Alex Iantaffi  
absolutely. And let's talk about that, because I feel like that really, especially here on Turtle Island, so called United States of America. You know that impact, you know it's really felt intergenerationally. You know the impact of slavery, the the impact of that colonization of black, brown and indigenous bodies. And so what is it that you see in terms of the ongoing systemic violence, including sexual violence and, you know, and the impact on kind of black folks today that feels really connected historically to that kind of history of colonization and slavery as well?

Anne Mauro  
Well, I think that we just see so many trends that they're almost insidious and that we think that they're part of our culture. I feel like a lot of times we're I don't know if your listeners have seen The Matrix trilogy, or if you have, I love

Alex Iantaffi  
the matrix, and we even add Tilly on the podcast talking about the matrix as a trans allegory. So, yeah, let's talk about,

Anne Mauro  
well, how I like to explain it, though, is that we're literally plugged in, right? And you don't even notice it until you're unplugged, that there's something else bigger and larger that's been happening for a very. A long time. And so for me, it's just completely insidious and like underground. So if I can just even bring it back to Brian Adam on the coast, Salish territory, Duwamish territory, a treaty was signed, of course, still not upheld. They're fighting to be federally recognized. But what, what just really gets me is that here, people don't understand that out of the top 10 cities with the most missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, we're number one. And if you talk to anybody you know out here, most people don't even know that this epidemic, this violence against brown women, right? They think that, oh, colonization is an event from the past, right? It's like no systems instructors have been put in place that still make it okay for people, or some people, to think it's okay to harm brown bodies, right? As evidenced by, we're number two for the top 10 states with the missing and murdered indigenous folks. So So is that as the backdrop, right? And then we just, we also seem to sprinkle it in, like I'm saying, it's like the water we drink. And I was just talking about how even in pornography, let's talk about ethnic theme, pornography? Yes, higher, higher, higher chances that you're going to see violence against brown women, right? Unconsensual behaviors towards Asian women, right? There's just so much that we're being fed, even if we're not talking about erotica, just the general media about black and brown bodies and how they are treated. So it's just just a continuation of a different of a different color. You

Alex Iantaffi  
know, absolutely, and I think, you know, we're both passionate about this, about that thread, historically, right? That actually the ongoing set, like the colonization, is ongoing, right? This is ongoing. It kind of never stopped. And, and you already talked about the intersection of gender and race as well, right? Like, you know, it is black and brown women and and Two Spirit folks who are the most kind of missing and murdered in our state, to where I live on Dakota nishinabe territories as well. And there is an intersection there around gender and race, and I know that there's also black women who talked about the impossibility of black womanhood in the context of womanhood only really being seen as white womanhood, right when we talk about protecting women and children, they might as well say white women and children, because they're not talking about protecting black and brown women and children, because if we were protecting black and brown women and children, we would be living in a very different world. So let's talk about the intersection of gender and race, and kind of what you found as you were doing this work in your book about that intersection, specifically,

Anne Mauro  
yeah, and I know that we were just talking about women, but one of the things that was more eye opening for me is this narrative that that We've had throughout education, that victims were just women, right? There's just this, the cis woman victimhood, which could be evidenced by giving birth, right? So we know that women were being raped because of all these mulatto children, right? And then discounting people that could not give birth, or people who were too young to give birth, but in thinking about the gender piece, and part of this goes back into patriarchy, right? So when the English settlers came, they came kind of with a family, mimicking the Commonwealth, a man in charge, like a god or a king over the family, right? And so if you think about an enslaved man, of what it means to be a man who would be able to protect his women and children, has that completely stripped from him, and then the psychic toll that it must take to also be seen as the perpetrator, right, as a violent perpetrator as a rapist, meanwhile, having no autonomy over your own reproduction and could be used, right? I was just talking about erotica, right? So back when the transatlantic slave trade had to stop importing bodies from Africa to the United States, there was a mass breeding that was happening with with the masters to create more enslaved people to work, right? And so during this time came turns like stud, right? There would try to breathe people with stud. And this is where this big black cock and and they were forced. Seeing rape, but being seen as a perpetrator and not the actual victim. And so that psychic toll of not being able to protect, which means you know a patriarch as a man, you protect your women, children, you provide, and then having it also turned that you are a sexual predator. Meanwhile, we are eliciting sexual violence on you. So is that intersection of even thinking about, how do we think about violence and gender? Right?

Alex Iantaffi  
Absolutely, yeah. And it's like, even for you know, when I think about black boys and the even the impossibility of childhood, actually, for all black and brown children, right? Because there is that hyper sexualization that being seen already, like, you know, and we know, like the systemic violence by the police against children, right, who should not be seen as a threat, but just being in a black and brown body mind in this country, like inherently makes you a threat to kind of the white colonial policing state. But how you know how insidious it is? Right? It's like, really baked in, like you said, like the water we drink, or the air we breathe. There's just so much trauma. And so how do you find then, you know, one of the things I loved about the book is that, really, it makes it clear that we have to unlearn and relearn, right? We need to understand where we've been to be more effective in our work, right? And if we don't do this work, we might actually do a lot of harm to our clients, and enough seeing clients being harmed by therapists who don't have the kind of critical, knowledgeable lens, and they haven't done their work right. And so let's talk a little bit about what you see nowadays when you work with clients, where you see that direct connection between like that violence that was inflicted not even that long ago, honestly on families and individuals and communities, right? And the challenges that folks face in kind of relating to their own bodies, to each other's bodies, to their sex and sexuality, yeah, what, what you notice in your practice?

Anne Mauro  
Well, what I feel like, I feel like any of the presenting problems that come in, I feel like we can trace back to, is there, like this historical component behind this? Is there the political or a legal component behind this. And then, how is it represented right now, right? And so I'm not sure if I made my point back around when I was even talking about porn. So something that we see right now is like, you still see BBC, big black cock or stud, right? You're seeing really racialized marketing around it that becomes so insidious that we don't even see it, and then we can have also some internalized sexual racism, because your body isn't measuring up to this standard of what you you are being racialized or being gendered to be,

Alex Iantaffi  
yeah, absolutely, that is a lot to carry, not but that's a lot to carry for you as a scholar and also as a therapist, I can't tell my I don't know about you, but I know when I was writing gender trauma, it was a hard book to write because you feel that impact right as you is you go through all that data, as you go through all that history, and you process it and put it on the page. And so I'm wondering what that process was like for you as a biracial black woman, kind of really bringing that knowledge and that history to the page, like in terms of your own process, if that makes sense, I think it was a miserable

Anne Mauro  
process for me. It was really so nice to hear that other people have suffered in the same way that I did not like I thought, Oh, if I ever write a book, it's going to be so much pleasure and joy. I'm just gonna love it so much. And it was, it was, it was hard, and sometimes almost freezing me in my steps and wanting to really be respectful and honor the dead, right? And I felt like there was other things listening to what I was writing, not just the human beings that were picking up the book, but it was tapping into something, and I wanted to be respectful and honor that space

Alex Iantaffi  
that makes so much sense to me. Even as you were talking, I'm feeling like, I'm like, yeah. Yeah, that that almost ancestral weight, responsibility. I don't know what the connection, what the word is, but it's just like, bringing all of that onto a page is not easy, and it is a responsibility. I mean, you did it beautifully, I think, in the book, and it's really essential reading. I think I really believe this is essential reading, not just for sex therapists, but sex educator, any clinician really should read this. But not only read this, also think about, how does it apply today? Right? Because we see it everywhere. We, like you said, we see the import. We didn't see any other Olympics, right? When I think about what happened with Imani Kalif, you know, and the questioning of her gender, which, again, not new, right? We know that especially black women athletes about their womanhood questioned, right? That so we have both kind of black excellence on one side, but on the other side, like, well, if it's too much excellence. Now we're questioning like, your gender, your womanhood, almost like, almost like, if Black womanhood can be revoked, or something, you know, if somebody is too strong or too good at what they do, right? So it's, it's ubiquitous, it's everywhere. And so it's not just when you're writing the book, but this is like every day you navigate this. And what is that like for you to navigate that in your day to day life? When you're on social media, watching TV, doing your work, right? It's all the time. Well, what is that experience like for you? If that makes sense,

Anne Mauro  
and maybe that also increased the intensity of doing the work in the book, because I have to highlight too it was being written during the pandemic, during the Black Lives Matter movement, on my own, trying to understand the world and how it was being jostled and responding to the jostling. Yeah, so I think it maybe fueled some of the fire. I think also, I want to say that one of the reasons why I fell in love with you academically is because you really put together the I feel like there's a bunch of dots, right? People are not connecting the dots from what has happened to what is happening, right? Think there's some good intention of people trying. But when I opened your book, I was like, we can cuss on this podcast, right? Yeah.

Speaker 2  
Yeah. Absolutely. You put,

Anne Mauro  
you connected the dots. And I think that's what's really important, I think for a lot of us, is connecting all those pieces together. Yeah,

Alex Iantaffi  
and I'm with you, because it's like, you know, and honestly, I was like, I don't know if this is going to make sense outside of my brain, but we need to connect the dots, because people don't get it, like you said. They think, oh, slavery, it's in the past, colonization in the past. And I'm like, No, it's every day everywhere. It's like, even as a parent, right? I see how pervasive it is and how you know how important it is to talk to my kids, you know about, like, about how we're racialized, how we're gendered, you know, the responsibility they have in the world, as you know, in an age appropriate way, but still making sure they know What it means to move in a white body, mind in this world, especially in their relationship, friendships, all of that, and because the dots are right there, right? But I think that it's very intentional that we can connect them, right? Because if we think those things are in the past and now, everything is okay, and we're all equal, and you know, all this beautiful sentiment that people are like, I don't see color, I don't see this, or I don't and I'm like, this is actually terrible that you don't see it, because it's there. And if you don't see it, it means that you're actually still plugged into the matrix to go back to that so, right? You're still kind of drinking the Kool Aid, and don't see that. Actually, not everybody's having the same experience. Not everybody's navigating the world in the same way. And I think we, we've seen that definitely during the uprising, during the pandemic, we keep seeing it right now, but it's, it's just, it's exhausting. How are you nourishing yourself finding joy and support in this exhausting world? Because it is exhausting. And I feel like sometimes I don't know about you, I mean, I talk a lot about trauma. Because I do a lot of trauma work, but it is exhausting. It's exhausting as a therapist, as a human, as a parent. I can't even imagine how much more exhausting it is for you as a biracial black woman. So how would you find that support, that care, that just, just that breath, you know, that help us get through the day.

Anne Mauro  
That's the biggest one is the breath, right? Because sometimes that's all we literally. I know we both have had busy lives, and so taking that moment to actually take a breath, I'm gonna take one right now. That is, that's my number one. That's my best friend, right there is that, that breath. And when I get to breathe in and check in, if my shoulders are up to my ears, I get to, like, let them, let them go. And always remind, you know, reminding myself that there's that feedback loop. And so if I'm feeling that anxiousness in my body, then it's going to feed into my brain. And so trying to calm. I've always been a person that needed like the TV on radio music, but I'm finding now, with doing all of this work, how powerful silence is for me, because I'm seeing even how television, even left in the background, is moving my mood a little bit like the theme of what's happening, the theme music, all of that is is actually also compressing on top of the life that I lived that day. And so turning off and not hearing anything except for the birds, my dog snoring, what? Whatever that is, I'm finding a lot of rest and healing in that nothing space,

Alex Iantaffi  
yeah, oh, that's beautiful and, and I love that you mentioned breast, because it can be so difficult to rest. I don't know about you, but like, right there is so much work to do. I don't think it's an accident that you're so service oriented. I feel like every minoritized therapist and educator I know is very service oriented for all the reason that you so beautifully listed earlier, but that can bring some level of like, exhaustion and burnout with it too, right? Because it's like, you know that you can never turn off in some ways, right? It's just like, it's our lives. It's not just like, Oh, I do this work and then I can forget about it, right? No, because this is not just, not just work. It's also like your lived experience is your day to day. And so have you found kind of ways to access more rest for yourself? Or, yeah, how are you doing with rest under late stage capitalism? And you know, because it's a thing, and I know we're both like, the main breadwinners for our families, it's not easy to, like do all the things, especially when you're also doing service and rest enough. So yeah, how are you doing with that?

Anne Mauro  
I'm it's, I'm a work in progress. So my clients, it's like an act of resistance, right? And so it's I have to really actively be active about giving myself rest and then not feeling guilty about the

Alex Iantaffi  
resting Absolutely.

Anne Mauro  
So that's the that's the part that I have is like, Oh yeah, I'm resting, but I could be, I should be, the laundry needs to be, be changed. And so now it's like my work is kind of moving into giving myself permission to reprioritizing what I thought was something that had to be done, like I used to think emails had to be done. And now I know that I can respond differently and not in urgency. I used to capitalism told me to do things and do things fast and efficient, and I feel like being slow is being more efficient for me, also self disclosure. Have put screen time limits on my phone so I won't get news updates or email updates at certain times of the day, because that's not my time to focus on that I feel like we're really distractible now, and so I'm trying to eliminate some of that distraction so I can keep on centering here

Alex Iantaffi  
absolutely but. And I think it's important to talk about this, because I don't know, but, but, you know, I often say to my clients, like, it's important that we don't compare our insights to other people outside. Because even other people have told me, Oh, you do so much, and like, you're on the go, and I'm like, and you do this and you do that, and I'm like, yeah, and 90% of the time I'm like, overwhelmed and exhausted, and I'm actually trying to do less, right? And so I think that it is important. And to have those conversations and to be like, it is a struggle, right? This is not what we have been so indoctrinated to, like, do the thing, do it fast. Like I, I feel so guilty to have two months of unanswered emails right now in my inbox and I'm like, Oh, I can't, you know, I should stay up and like, answer. So this those emails, and my body is just, like, Absolutely not peace out. I literally, my brain nowadays shuts down. I used to be able to push through, but as I age, I can't even do that. And so it's, I don't think that we talk enough about this is too much at some point. Like, when do we all wake up and go, this is not working for us really like we need to do something different, and talking about doing something differently. What is your hope? You know, when you wrote this book, this beautiful book, what is the hope, your hope that people would learn, especially your colleagues, maybe especially your white colleagues, would get out of this book in terms of kind of learning and changing.

Anne Mauro  
My hope was that it was connecting some dots, right? It's not just you know, these things that happen and here we are, but actually making it make sense for more people to give more insight into it, maybe more language specifically around it, but at least seeing the connection,

Alex Iantaffi  
yeah was my hope Absolutely. And do you feel like have you had good feedback from other colleagues that like, yes, this was helpful. This helped me look at things differently. Or Yes, I

Anne Mauro  
have in the white colleagues too. I do have a section for white colleagues, white supervise advisors too. And have had some good feedback around those exercises that they that I have them work through.

Alex Iantaffi  
That's wonderful. And are there some, maybe an exercise, or something, that you could share with the listeners in terms of, if they're like, Yeah, I do want to connect the dots. I do want to better understand how those things link up and and what is it then need to do differently in my day to day life, to move towards a more liberated world for all of us. Yeah? And if not, that's okay too. But just wonder if there's like, just something that could be shared if people are listening and are interested in this work, yeah. Well, what

Anne Mauro  
I find when I've been teaching this material or in writing the book, is I'm not saying too many new things to black people or other people of color, right? It's really new news for white people, though, though we're not when I ask about certain things like the Tuskegee experiment, right? Yeah, not everybody in the room knows what I'm talking about in I work in predominantly white spaces, right? And so, so I feel like a lot of this work is on the white folks at this time. And I thought for myself that a part of the liberation was to understand the history is like, I gotta understand where I'm coming from before I can get to this liberation piece. And now that I've got the history I'm working on the liberation I'll have the answers for it. But I think that if you are a white person wanting to do this work, that doing this work with other white people or people of your culture is really important. Because I see people like, Oh, I got a black client, and I want to, like, do this. Like, what should I do? It's like, why don't you practice with your own people and then come and try it with the person of color, right? Yeah, and there's a lot of people that create environments for that. I did something with Rasma mini Kim, right? With some somatic abolitionist work, right? Like doing something to work on dismantling some of those pieces in yourself, doing some of that learning for yourself. So the information isn't new, the terminology isn't new, and then you can feel more confident when you try to enter the space, especially in the clinical aspect, right? Absolutely,

Alex Iantaffi  
I love that, because it's like, I Yes, I often say to like, especially white folks, is like, this is like, the work, right, right? This is the work that needs to happen to move us towards liberation. And I think there is a lot of kind of even trepidation, sometimes by white colleagues, to talk about race or how we're racialized. And I was like, but we need to talk about this, because if we can talk about this, we just keep perpetuating the same says. Stems of harm, and so I and, and even just knowing, how does your body mind, like, regulate or dysregulates around black and brown folks, for example, I talk about that a lot with people, because sometimes there's even like, it's, you know, like, just really basic stuff, right? What is your tolerance for? Like, more expansion and emotionality, because right, so much of whiteness is about tightness, and from a somatic perspective, right, tightness and policing and, like, you know, keeping everything compact and just keeping a lead on pretty much everything it feels right like, and so even just, and I think resmaa talks about this actually too, in terms of, like, just even notice kind of your nervous system regulation, because if you're not even aware of that, should you even be in a room with black clients? Honestly, so I love what you said. It's like, let's practice with one another first before we do any more harm in our field, which is also why so important to have more black clinicians, more black and brown clinicians and therapists and supervisors too, so the harm doesn't get perpetuated. If that makes sense. Not

Anne Mauro  
100% makes sense. But I think, you know, don't quote me, but I think the numbers are like 4% of therapists are black, right? So the reality is, is that most black people don't have that option, right? And so maybe up to white folks to step in to this absolutely what I do like about Rasma. Oh, sorry though you're not making them slow down in that space when you feel that uncomfortableness and really getting comfortable with knowing what it feels like, right? Are your armpits sweating? Are you holding your your breath like what, you know, you talked about the vibrations. How is your body vibrating in that and almost using titration right to step in and step out of that comfortableness, so you're not getting maxed out while trying absolutely

Alex Iantaffi  
and, and that's so important, because I often talk to, you know, even some of my white Super vesses is like, when you're working with, like, you know, black and brown clients, like, do you bring that praise when it's relevant, right? There's been a lot of times I was like, okay, here, you know, did you say that to your client? They're like, No. And you can see the tension in the body, right? You can see, like the whole spine going up the shoulder, go up to the ear. And I'm like, Okay, let's slow down. Let's take a breath. Why didn't you bring it up? Right? It's like, What stopped you? What is the fear, right? And this fear, this perfectionism of white supremacy culture, right? What if I make a mistake? And I was like, Well, you know, yes, I want you to be careful. And also I don't want you to be so careful that then you have no relationship with your client, because then it's not an authentic connection, right, does it? And like you said, I think sometimes I feel clinicians approach some of this work almost in this utilitarian way. I want to be more culturally competent in air quote, right, to work with black clients. But I'm like, I I really want you to think about cultural attunement, actually. And really like, do you know yourself? And also, like, Who, who do you surround yourself with? And what media do you consume, what books you read, what music do you listen to? Who are your friends like? Right? It's it's way beyond the therapy room. I think for white folks to do that work has to be more expensive than just what we do in the therapy room. I don't know if that made any sense whatsoever. Sorry. I feel like I went on a little side quest there for you.

Anne Mauro  
That does make make sense. I was gonna say something. I just lost my my thought completely that's

Alex Iantaffi  
okay. Maybe I'll come back.

Unknown Speaker  
I hope it does

Alex Iantaffi  
well, if it in the meantime, and if it comes back, just jump in. But I love that you also mentioned education, because you do a lot of education, and because there is a very small percentage of black and brown clinicians, you educate a lot of white people. What is that like for you to be in those spaces?

Anne Mauro  
That was my friend. My breath again, I had to call my friend.

Unknown Speaker  
We can be honest.

Anne Mauro  
You know? I am I am honest. I also just want to note too in it's not just like academia, right? It's not what I'm doing is an intersection between critical race theory. Anxiety and sex sexology, yes, right? Sex therapy, sex education, you know, there is a fight to keep both of those in curriculum right. It's not widely accepted or supported and so on that. On top of my positionality, I think, is the challenge, I wonder. You know, if I was just teaching nurses, would it be the same, right, or but if I'm teaching this particular content, I think puts a different, a different level of spice on it. For me, absolutely,

Alex Iantaffi  
because people are uncomfortable with all of this, right? I don't want to talk about race, I don't want to talk about sex, they don't want to talk about bodies, right? Like, and then you're like, let's talk about all of it. Definitely don't want to talk about colonialism. The number of times I've been told, like, do you have to mention colonialism so much? Like, if we're just talking about gender, I was like, a sure thing, right? So it's all things that people don't want to talk about. So it cannot, like you said, it cannot be easy to work at the intersection of all those things that literally why supremacy and colonialism is like, let's just push them all aside and not think about them, right? It's a lot. Yeah. So how, how do you find that kind of, that center, that kind of, that will to keep educating people, because that's, that's a lot to educate people.

Anne Mauro  
It is a lot. And I've thought about retiring a couple of different times. Yes, um, but I just taught for a bipoc cohort of sex therapy certificate students, and that was one of the most profound teaching experiences that I have ever had. How students were crying, saying they never had. I had several mixed people in the class. They said, You know, I've never had anybody that looked like me teach a class before, and how you held this space for us like nobody else has like that was my intention, right? Was to give you the experience that I didn't get that I wanted, right? And so being able to give that, and then seeing that it has that profound impact, that I'm helping them connect the dots early in their career, so that I'm being a good ancestor to our field, so that these baby therapists are ready, you know, to really have critical analysis around why and how we got here.

Alex Iantaffi  
Absolutely, I love that you mentioned being a good ancestor. I often think about, okay, what kind of ancestor do I want to be? Right? How do I want to spend my time? Because, yeah, there are times where I'm like, I'm pretty sure there are easier things that we could do with our time, right, and and maybe even more, like things that pay more money are less time consuming, and less is all crashing, right? And yet, right. It's also like this piece of well, what do I want to leave the field? Right? What kind of ancestor do I want to be for folks who come after me? And so I'm really interested in kind of, what are your hopes for the field moving forward, right? Because you do give a lot to the field, right? You give your brilliant insight for your writing, you do clinical supervision, you educate people you serve as a volunteer on committees and professional association. So what is your hope for the future of our field?

Anne Mauro  
I am actually hopeful, and I think maybe you can also understand why, coming from my lens of being a member of ASEC in 2011 was so much different now, over a decade later, in the movement that has actually happened in a decade which I actually haven't seen that momentum in other organizations, I didn't feel like I had a home at ASEC at first, and I very much tried to assimilate into that space, that white space to be accepted. And I would have never thought like that. If I look back at that and who was working so hard to try to fit in, I would have never known that we have a black president that's a woman, a black president elect, right now, right? A board full of gender expansive folks, right? We have so many different positionalities, like being represented now that that just. Gives me hope. I'm like, oh, you know, and I don't feel like it's on me anymore. I feel like even the people under US are now the ones that have to, you know, really lifting of moving, moving it in that I've already seen, like a mountain be moved, and if it just continues at this pace. I mean, I think more than my imagination could think of might happen for us.

Alex Iantaffi  
I'm with you. I'm like, sometimes when I look back, I'm like, wow. Like, change has happened pretty fast, right? When I see Dr Lex and leadership at ASIC as president, right? Like you said, the just the the field is changing, right? There's still a lot of work to do, but I'm with you. I can't even imagine what will it be like in 10 or 20 years. Hopefully even more mountains will get moved, right? At least. I sure hope so.

Anne Mauro  
I feel like it's going to mean the younger people telling me to get it together, like you need to, you need to take this training. You need to, yes, okay, okay, let

Unknown Speaker  
me catch up.

Alex Iantaffi  
I'm looking forward to that. I know my friend Colleen, who died back in 2019 I remember them saying, like, I just want to be one of those ancestors, or like, obsolete. And people look back and go, Oh my God, what were they thinking? Like, that was so antiquated, right? That was so not radical, but, you know? And I was like, Yes, I really feel that. I want people to look at me go, oh, you're a little behind the times. Now, Alex, here, here's like, where you need to, like, catch up. And I think that is beautiful, right? We want to be pushed by the younger generation coming after us, to do even better, to think even bigger, to dream even larger dreams that we could ever imagine. Absolutely, I love that. I want to be respectful of your time. I feel like there's so many conversations that you and I could have. I was like, we haven't even talked about the fact that, you know you're black and also Italian American. We have a little Italian connection. We haven't even talked about, like, our cultural connection, right? And I'm so curious. I feel like that could be all other episodes to talk about the intersection there. But like I said, I want to be respectful of your time, and I'll always ask people, is there anything that we haven't talked about that you were hoping that we would talk about today, or anything they're like, you know, as I think about this conversation, this bit is missing, or I really want to punch on this.

Anne Mauro  
I want to just make sure that, too, that I want to connect the dots here, as we talk about, like connecting the dots, and it's going to be like a broad stroke of connecting dots, but just, you know, understanding that piece about colonization isn't just about like black bodies. It's not just about our gender, it's about every part of our existence and how we are in relationship to each other, which relationships we think are acceptable, how many people can be in those relationships, the race that we will partner with like every like, all these things, right? Even our access to employment is just intrinsically tied to the history, absolutely. So I think that people think, Oh, it's just this one thing. It's like, no, it's like, all of the things of where we are, and how we consider family, how we consider work, like everything has a historical basis.

Alex Iantaffi  
And I love that, because I think often people think about things and kind of, and that's part of also why supremacy and colonialism like this chunks, right? But it is pervasive, and it's all connected, like, it's the whole ecosystem, right? And it's yeah, when you were saying that, I was like, Oh, I feel like we could spend, you know, hours and hours going, Yeah, it's about things that and things that people think are fixed, like, who were we attracted to? The choices we make? Actually, all of those are kind of shaped by history and shaped by those constructs. And often people think those things are just innate, right? And I'm like, actually, there is a lot that we've internalized from all this messaging that you know, and the history that we carry with us, and we need to really, like you said, it's unplugging from the matrix and going, Whoa. This is this is everywhere, right? It's like, whether I watch reality TV or I'm working. My clients, or walk in nature. And even, who gets to be in nature and feel safe while being in nature, right? Like I know here in Minnesota, there are a lot of initiatives to make sure that black and brown folks, for example, feel more comfortable in state parks and other natural spaces, because it's taught history, right? And, and, and, I think that folks like you said often don't make that connection, that it's it's everything, it's everything in our day to day is impacted absolutely one of the I know that I said that was the last question, but I'm going to ask you one more question, because we are coming up to election season where we live, and I think that people are feeling a certain kind of heaviness. And so I'm not going to ask you a political question, but I'm going to ask you just, how are you resourcing yourself during this time? Because, you know, I feel like in some ways, not that this is not going on all the time, but it's amplified when elections get closer, right, especially presidential elections and so how are you just like? You know, you've made some good examples of like, taking care of yourself, but how are you finding some joy, some expansiveness, some pleasure in your life? Let's talk about pleasure. We're sex therapists. Are you finding some access to comfort and pleasure and expansion in your life right now,

Anne Mauro  
two things come to mind. I used to have very busy mornings. I get ready, cook the breakfast, do the emails and all the things, and I've now stopped doing all things, except for just getting kiddo to school in the morning. That's my only, my only thing we do. So I can cook, whatever I can do her hair or whatever it is, but it's really just slowing down and keeping that priority of again, going back to that, this is the center my home, my family, making sure my kiddo is happy when she goes to middle school right has been an anchor. And then I have a lot of, like, anger and confusion and other like, I can feel it. I'm tapping into it. I'm trying to, like, recall it. I was just listening to the news right before we hopped on right listening to like, who is voting for what and why, wasn't frustrated and and one thing that I feel like is helping me in this area is I also started weight training, because I will channel that like little bit of anger. I will channel that stupid comment that I heard, or that channel that fear that I'm walking amongst 50% of people that think a completely different way that I do, and how can you ever be safe? Like channeling all that into just really pushing a weight, and then I can feel that like softening in my body. It's like my body doesn't have to hold that because it just exerted that in a really angry way.

Alex Iantaffi  
Ah, I love that. And I could almost feel like the pleasure of pushing that out, right? And it's like you're gonna have to all day in your body, absolutely. That's beautiful, yeah,

Anne Mauro  
and I feel really strong after, like, stronger mentally like, okay, I can hold that. My planet is a show right now in this moment.

Alex Iantaffi  
Yeah, I love that so much. Well, we, like, I said, there's probably like 500 other conversations I want to have with you. But for now, we're coming towards the end of our time together for this episode. And so if people are like, maybe they're in your state and they would like to work with you, or maybe they want to get supervision from you, or they want to find your books, how can they find you online?

Anne Mauro  
Yeah, I'm Google able on all of the things. So just my name, it's Anne with a, e, n, m, a, u, r, O, and I have ways on my site to reach out with me, and I'm on all of the social inter webs.

Alex Iantaffi  
That's right, you're on Instagram. I love follow it. I love following you on Instagram. I think you are. I am anmaro, right on Instagram is that your handle, and don't worry, listeners will pull all those links to Anne's website and the book and the Instagram on the episode description. But also, if people are like, I never look at the episode description. I always like to make sure that people have talked about where you can be found as well, well, and this has been unsurprisingly, because you're amazing, an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for your time and your wisdom and your insight. I appreciate you so much. Thank

Anne Mauro  
you. I will take any opportunity to talk with you at any time now. Like you know that. So it was my pleasure to share the space with you.

Alex Iantaffi  
I feel just the same. So that's beautiful, well, and dear gender stories, listeners or watchers, if you're watching on YouTube nowadays, as always, thank you for supporting the podcast, for listening, and you know until next time, please take care of yourself and find some expansiveness and and some rest in your own lives too, until next time you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai