In Conversation with House Mother Alice O'Callaghan

Alice O'Callaghan is a transgender community activist and CEO for the queer production company Zenith City Horror. She is a "20 under 40" award winner for her queer community and artistic leadership which spans over a decade in the Twin Ports. She is a modern day House Mother, providing advocacy and safe spaces for vulnerable queer youth and artists in the Twin Ports area. She prioritizes her fight against discrimination and exploitation of trans artists in the entertainment industry.

Zenith City Horror: https://www.zch.gay/
Miss Cupcake: https://www.instagram.com/ms.cupcake.drag/

Transcript

Alex Iantaffi: 0:36

Hello and welcome to another episode of gender stories. I'm always excited because I always have such fabulous guests. So once again, I'm elated, excited, thrilled to introduce my guest today, Alice Schroeder. Alice Schroeder is a transgender community activist and CEO for the queer production company, Zenith CDRCity Horror and I've seen several shows by Zenith City Horror, and they are so good I was about to swear by I was like, we'll save that for later. They're such good shows. She's a 20 under 40 Award winner for queer community and artistic leadership, which spans over a decade in the Twin Ports. She's a modern day house mother providing advocacy and safe spaces for vulnerable queer youth and artists in the Twin Ports area. And if you don't know where that is, that is where I live on the Dakota and Anishinaabe territories currently known as Duluth and Duluth, Minnesota. Superior, Wisconsin, and often this area's called the Twin Ports. She prioritizes their fight against discrimination and exploitation of trans artists in the entertainment industry. I'm so looking forward to this conversation. Welcome Alice. Thank you so much for making time for gender stories today. I appreciate it.

Alice O'Callaghan: 1:48

Oh, I'm excited to be here. Thanks for for thinking of me. And my name. Also. I am. I'm Alice O'Callaghan now, I was recently I was recently married.

Alex Iantaffi: 1:59

I am glad that we're gonna correct that. So it's Alice O'...send that so that I got it exactly right, please. It's okay. And I will change it in our episode description. Well, we'll just leave it in it just to create some more excitement. So you recently got married. Congratulations, I saw that on your Instagram. How let's start from there. I was married life going? Let's just Let's just talk a little bit before we get into it.

Alice O'Callaghan: 2:25

You know, it's, it's pretty easy. It's pretty quiet and peaceful. And it's been nice to, to just hang out with your best friend and enjoy life together. So it's been been nice after a hectic few few months with the wedding and whatnot.

Alex Iantaffi: 2:46

Yeah, that sounds just really sweet. And how perfect as things as the weather is getting a little bit colder, you know, to have like a quiet cozy life with your best friend, who's also your spouse now. So congratulation. So yeah, you are in the CEO of Zenith City Horror. And I have seen several productions at this point, since moving to Duluth from the Twin Cities. In this last year, I've started to like go out again, and I've been really enjoying the shows. And the you've been doing this for a hot minute. Right? Drag? And so I'm really curious about what does drag means to you. You know, what is it about? What, why this passion for drag in your life?

Alice O'Callaghan: 3:37

I think drag is, you know, it's the only solely queer art form. You know, it's the it's the queerest thing. So growing up, when you see people like Rocky Horror Picture Show, and you see drag artists RuPaul, you know, you're, you're reminded that you're not alone. And that helped me growing up. And so now that I'm older and continue on, I just want to help those those generations.

Alex Iantaffi: 4:12

That's beautiful. Yeah, I remember like watching The Rocky Horror Picture Show when I was like 16. And in the 80s. That ages me a little bit. But I was like, What is this in? I'm all about it. I didn't. I didn't have words yet for my queerness or my trans identity, but there was definitely something that felt like my people, whatever that means, right? So I definitely recognize and that's how I feel when I come to drag shows. It's like, queerness, you know, just feels like a celebration of our community. And it's so beautiful. i I'm curious about you know, sometimes people think about drag, and they think about while it's really, you know, gay man. And I think that has changed over the last 20 years, right? Definitely. When I first saw my first drag show. All the performers identified as gay men in their daily life. And then there were drag artists, right. And I think that is really changed. And I'm curious about your drag companiy is very gender inclusive of trans masculine folks, trans feminine folks, non binary folks, probably more people that don't even know how they identify because, but it is very gender inclusive. Why is that important to you? Because now not every drag company or experiences and so I'm curious about that gender influence UDM what it means for to you for Zenith CDR in particular?

Alice O'Callaghan: 5:41

You know, a lot of people ask that question, you know, just just how you said, you know, drag is always evolving, you know, things are always changing. And I think that's the purpose of drag, you know, I think that will never change it, it always has to be evolving and always has to be changing with the times and moving and, and that's, that's part of history. So I think that yeah, I mean, the, the drag scene is definitely different than it was years and years ago, and I guarantee you in 10 years time, it's going to be completely different than it is now. And, and gender inclusivity, for me, is important, because in this world, gender expansive folks, you know, our, our voices are so easily erased, if people in with privilege, you know, choose to just ignore it, or choose to push it aside. And so marginalized communities, particularly, you know, trans people of color, their voices can be so easily shut down. And it is so scary. And as a young queer artist here in the Twin Ports, I had to sit through so many toxic situations and environments, and I can see what what happens mostly, you know, unintentionally, by people who aren't aware of, of certain things with with trans issues, the, you know, unintentional harm that it causes. So, Zenith City Horror was always meant to be a platform. So gender expansive folks, queer artists of all kinds, you know, they don't have to sit and banging down doors, they don't have to fight or, or compete to, to be seen. And I think it's important to have those spaces. And that's what I think what people notice about Zenith City Horror is it's definitely a different energy, a different open vibe. And I think, you know, being gender inclusive is a huge, huge part of that.

Alex Iantaffi: 8:00

There's definitely that vibe, I love how innovative some of the acts are, right? Whether I like them or not, I can see the artistry, you know, and there's like, so many young people as well, like, very young, like, I'm talking like, you know, almost like my kids age, you know, like, late teens, early 20s. That's amazing. Because it's actually not common to see people that young, in my experience, at least historically, to see people that young really take also not just to traditional drag, whatever that might mean. But it was an older queer, but you know, and like really taking risks and doing really fun things like editing, you know, putting bits of like, movie dialogue with music with, you know, there's, anyway, I just love it. I could talk about this for a long time. But yeah, you it's not just gender inclusive, it's also age inclusive, you're so supportive of young people expressing themselves, like, really authentically and taking artistic risks. What's that like, for you as the drag mother, but also CEO of the company, you know, because that is a risk and artistic risks, you're taking in a lot of ways.

Alice O'Callaghan: 9:13

You know, it's, it's a risk, but at the same time, it's, it's just super eye opening, you know, even me as an elder as a, as a show director, you, you have to always be open to, to what, what's what's coming up, you know, what's the future of drag, and, you know, as drag evolves, I think that the age that that kids are getting involved in drag, that's it's definitely getting younger and younger. We've had someone reach out who is barely 13 years old, reached out to perform. And it's, it's becoming obvious that if, if people choose to if they really have a passion for drag, it's, it's a natural born talent, it's a natural skill. And so, you see these younger artists who are just so talented, and historically drag is an 18 plus 21 plus thing. So, you know, all of those years growing up which are so informative are so important to to developing, and they're kind of isolated, they don't have that, that outlet. And so that's, that's why I try to keep it as open as I can, as accessible as I can.

Alex Iantaffi: 10:32

I love that. And I love that you do, like all ages show, I think that somebody was like, you know, queer, but also queer parents, you know, like, I know that especially with my oldest, you know, growing up, because she enjoyed drag so much. She's been she's been seeing drags and she was five or six years old, you know, and that she's 20 now and you know, always loved it but I have also experienced people in queer community go this is not appropriate, you know, for a child or having some strange reaction sometimes, even if it's an orally and just show right? That even in to a kid in the audience, and I was like, But why wouldn't I want my kid to be exposed and immersed in this like celebration of queer community of gender expansiveness, you know, nobody bats an eyelid if like an eight year old is at a Taylor Swift concert, or Britney Spears concert, even though many of the songs are not always age appropriate. But the moment you bring a child to like a drag show or drag story hour right people have feelings, that that's not appropriate. And I think for me, there's so much that legacy of queer phobia, even internalized queerphobia in our community, right, that children should not be exposed to gender expensiveness and queer sexuality, but that got exposed to sis hetero norms every day. You know? And so yeah, and I see you nodding, so I feel like I'm preaching to the converted. I just got really excited on that train of No, and it's for everybody,

Alice O'Callaghan: 12:10

da, da, no, I just I love I love hearing parents that that share that point of view, because you're right, you know, people, as soon as you hear queer, or you're gonna enter queer space, your mind automatically goes to 18 plus porn, or, you know, gay bars, or something that's really naughty. And people forget to realize, all of us queer adults, we were queer children, and, and children can understand gender identity, even at six years old, sometimes younger. So there are queer people of all ages, above all all eras. So yeah, Drag is part of their culture. So celebrate.

Alex Iantaffi: 12:57

Absolutely. Yeah, I love it. And I think it can totally be a family event, and it often is with all ages show, which is beautiful. And so I am curious about, you know, what would you say to those folks who are like, drag should be kept away from children, because we, we've heard a lot of that noise, unfortunately, in the so called United States in the last few years. And so, you know, and of course, it goes in cycles, but I feel as drag has become more prominent, you know, not just through report, but also like other shows, like, Legendary, you know, there's just more awareness of Drag in like, let's call it dominant culture, like, what would you say to those folks where, like, you should not expose children to like, you know, drag queens and drag story hours and keep it out of the libraries and all that kind of stuff.

Alice O'Callaghan: 13:49

I would say, go to a drag show, you know, go, see, you know, see what, what all of the noises about because I guarantee you, you're just you're gonna see nothing exciting, nothing that is, is scandalous, nothing that is going to scar children. That's where those those voices, those loud voices, they, they don't really know exactly what they're, they're yelling about.

Alex Iantaffi: 14:25

I agree with you, I think there's so much fear, so much ignorance, and so much not realizing how much children are constantly actually immersed in kind of this, you know, very cisheteronormative environment all the time, you know, like with the youth on YouTube, and the pop music they listen to in games, and then all of a sudden, because the drag is seen as a queer thing. It's like, like you said, Oh, 18 plus 21. Plus only it's a sexual thing, right? But really about sex. It's about art is about music is about dance. It's about community. Celebration family, right. That's why there's like houses in your house mother. And so I don't think that people realize just how much drag is not about being queer. But it's about the celebration of our connection through queerness and connection to self connection to art connection to ancestors even sometimes I feel I don't know. How did you feel when you first saw your first drag show? Like, I know that like, I was like, when I look back, I'm like, wow, I was such a baby queer. You know, when I first saw my first drag show, and also Dr has come a long way in the last almost three decades that I've been out. So what was your experience when you first were exposed? If you want to use that word to drag?

Alice O'Callaghan: 16:01

I think, you know, I saw my first drag show when I was 18. So I was a little older. Because, you know, there was no access to drag and the middle of nowhere Minnesota. But I think I remember just thinking that, you know, this is a star, this is a celebrity, and they are, you know, so pretty, and everything about them is just everything that I want to be. And I was kind of just like, well, who is this godlike creature?

Alex Iantaffi: 16:37

I love that. And then you became a godlike creature, because you also do drag and you're really wonderful. A

Alice O'Callaghan: 16:44

nightmare more expressly

Alex Iantaffi: 16:48

Or no, I mean, you know, one person's terrors another person's dream. You know, I am curious about how did drag influence your own gender journey, your own gender identity, if at all?

Alice O'Callaghan: 17:04

Well, my, my drag career started, you know, in private, I would host Mrs. Cupcake's Cosmo nights, and they were private, private little parties at my house, and I would dress in drag and host these parties throughout the year. And people could come and, you know, if they were a poet, they could read their poetry, or if they could sing, then they could sing the song. So it's kind of a gathering of queer, queer folk artists of all, all types. And that kinda was, I remember, I will always remember my dad, saying, you know, is this you know, you, you put this on is, you know, is this, you, you know, it's not you, it's a fake you. And in my mind, I'm like, is it really a fake me, I don't really know. And drag, you know, gives a lot of people a good reason to explore that feminine side, you know, buy the makeup, and buy the pretty close, and, and when you're closeted, trans person, you know, it's easy to kind of just be like, Oh, I'm just, you know, just a drag queen. So, I think just little little moments like, that kind of helped me get to where I am today, I kind of view my drag today is, you know, my feminine self like just crazy high level, you know, what would be the, the epitome of my femininity, that's kind of my drag. But and that's the fun thing a drag to is, there is no right or wrong way to do drag. You know, they, there is no right or wrong way to put on makeup. There is no right or wrong music. You know, it's all about what's inside that person. I think that's what makes drag so fascinating is, is every drag number is so, so different.

Alex Iantaffi: 19:05

Absolutely, you know, and it's so much about, like, artistic expression. And, and I'm, I'm thinking about, you know, kind of Alice as a child, and what difference would have made to that child to see drag younger, even than 18 Do you think it would have made a difference for you, if you had seen drag as a child, for example, in terms of your own identity and, and knowing yourself? And yeah,

Alice O'Callaghan: 19:36

yeah, no, and I mean, I think I, the more therapy sessions I go through, the more I realize, you know, when I approach drag or I'm creating a show or developing a show, always in the back of my mind, I'm like, pretending you know, if my my little self was watching me, you know, what would? What? What would that be like? So no, that is always in in the back of my mind.

Alex Iantaffi: 20:00

I love that. I also love how you talked about drag can be like this femininity at its height or amplified, right? I remember, as somebody who was assigned female at birth, like, as I was trying to understand myself in my early 20s. I was like, what I feel like I'm in drag all the time, which was correct because I was trying to perform femininity, which was very much not, I mean, it's part of me, but it was a very, like, queer, masculine, feminine needed, which I didn't quite understand that sort of way, drag, give me that language, right? I feel like I'm in drag because I was like I am I'm performing. I'm trying to do my best. And then the more I did that, the more I was like, Oh, hang on this, this femininity is a different type of femininity than what's expected of me as an AFAB person. And so, I think, I don't know, I think there's so much richness in the drag community and drag expression that can really help anybody of any gender to better understand and embrace themselves, I think. Yeah, I think was it last month or two months ago, you had the lovely show that was all like, masculine and non binary, folks, but it was more about celebrating kind of Yeah, like performers over Yeah, you know what I'm talking about right?

Alice O'Callaghan: 21:28

Kens and Thems

Alex Iantaffi: 21:32

them. I was trying to remember the name of the show. Fun, Ken's memes. So obviously, that's part of kind of your values to really celebrate all the different expressions in drag. What inspired you to put together something like the Kens and Thems show, for example,

Alice O'Callaghan: 21:53

I always, you know, I'm always going to look for people who often will get ignored, you know, drag kings and non binary folk, you know, they often don't get the respect and appreciation that that they deserve. So it, it was, it's really fun when when you kind of swept it up, and the masculine presence is more prominent than the typical feminine one. So yeah, it's, we're always trying new new things.

Alex Iantaffi: 22:28

And you're very good at try new things, I think you You're fabulous. I tried all this new things with your drag company. And I know one of the things you are passionate about, it's also like, just fighting against the exploitation of trans artists, because I think as drag has become more popular or visible, let's call it in kind of mainstream community. And as trans artists are also like, coming into their own, both within drag community and outside of drag community, you know, we are seeing more trans artists in kind of TV shows and other things. And so tell me more about where this passion around the discrimination and exploitation that trans artists can experience in the entertainment industry comes from and kind of how you fight for kind of better treatment of trans artists in the mainstream entertainment industry.

Alice O'Callaghan: 23:28

So the entertainment industry itself is an exploitative place. You know, I my mind, I just, I just see all the billionaire CEOs of all these entertainment companies, and you're just like, what on earth? And so that alone is, is happening every day. So you can imagine how exploitative it is for queer and trans artists. So, you know, for example, there's a drag competition on TV where they just like frickin simulated drowning drag queens as a, as a challenge for entertainment. And, you know, my mind is like, Well, why on earth. So, I come from a long, long, decade long history of Performing Arts, you know, starting in stage, stage acting, and like I said earlier, just being in toxic situations, and going through the motions and putting on a smile and doing what you have to do to, to get opportunities to to be seen. And as the years went on, you kind of you know, I learned everything that I know from cisgendered, white, straight men. So you know, I watched them from you know, I learned how to do production, management and budgeting and all of those technical aspects and all that stuff. And as the years went on, I began to realize that they really didn't have my best interest in mind. And a lot of the trauma, and the harm caused to me was unintentional from people who, who don't quite understand, you know, how certain actions or certain words or certain behaviors would negatively affect a genderqueer person, you know, like dysphoria is a huge thing. So you have to be conscious about costuming, you know, you have to be conscious about them not feeling isolated, or feeling like, like a monkey dancing on a stage, you know, as a freak show, because I did a lot of queer shows, and it began to feel that way, you know, I was kind of was a oddity. And when you're a director, and when you're someone in power in the entertainment industry, you have a lot of influence on your actors, or your staff. And some people don't even realize that. So, you know, having that education, having that, that knowledge of trans identities and how to approach these things, that that can help prevent a lot of unnecessary hurt. So being always on the lookout, standing up for, for things that that might just go, you know, unseen by sis, people, you know, just bringing things up to people's attention, advocating for for transgender trainings, if you are an entertainment business, or you're dealing with, with queer, trans artists, all of that stuff is really, really important. And queer and trans artists, let's face it, they're really good. You know, they are so talented. And you're just gonna keep seeing more and more and more of them. So let's just be proactive. And let's start now and then prepare for for the future.

Alex Iantaffi: 27:29

I love that this is so beautiful. Do you feel that that's almost part of your role, as well as like, house matter? You know, and I know that you describe herself as like a modern day house mother and I would love for you to say a little bit more about how do you see your role like as a house mother, what that means to you and, and how it might connect to this desire to like, give trans and queer artists and affirming positive experience rather than a traumatic tokenizing gathering? Experience.

Unknown: 28:03

It drag houses, you know, it's almost like a personal brand. So, you know, there's hundreds and hundreds of drag houses and drag mothers in this industry and, and every person can, can find their, their right fit. But more more so recently, you know, I kind of viewed it, it was a realization within my transness you know, when we went through the club Q tragedy, like that shooting, yeah, and that kind of hit home, where this shouldn't be happening, you know, way back when we had powerful trans women of color fighting, and, and standing up for, for what's right. And so it was almost a calling within my transness with my transcestors, you know, let's keep this fight going. And let's create a space where I know that, you know, if people trust me, if they want to join the house, they want to be a part of that, you know, they know that I'm going to have their best interests in mind. And I'm going to help them succeed and whatever it is, they want to do, you know, if they want to be on RuPaul Drag Race, you know, you can give them all the opportunities to improve their drag and help them record a video, you know, an audition video or, you know, if someone is isolated, and they don't have a family, they don't have somewhere to be or someone to talk to you and validate their feelings and give them support, you know, that's, that's here too. So it's really, you know, up to each individual that type of relationship you know what they want but for me, it's definitely and paying tribute and honoring my my transcestors, that's that's kind of how I go about my, my drag, mothering, if you say

Alex Iantaffi: 30:17

that's beautiful, because also in a way, historically, sometimes all we had was each other as queer community and as trans people, especially family of origin are not accepting I know. In some ways, I'm grateful that I come out in my 20s when I had some independence from my family of origin, because that did not go well, for me, initially, even though I have been able to repair since with my mom, but you know, for a long time trans and queer people, and still I would say, are my family. And when not even family of choice, because even that almost implies like a hierarchy, you know, family of choice family of origin. I'm like, No, Trans and Queer People are my family. Like, you know, whether they're like my partners or friends or communities, like, definitely, there's some folks were like my family. And that is so important to me. And I think that a lot of the houses historically, also had a role of like protecting specially those queer young folks who were coming out really early, and maybe had nowhere else to go, or nobody, no safe adults to go to. And so, I'm wondering, also, with the current political climate, you know, we're seeing just this explosion of anti trans bills over the last three years, in the so called United States, how do you feel that's impacting, like Trans and Queer Youth and you still see a role for yourself as a drag mother in terms of supporting and protecting Trans and Queer Youth? During those times?

Alice O'Callaghan: 31:53

It? Yeah, you know, it's, it's just crazy, you know, I, I gave a, I gave a speech a year ago, and people kind of were confused as to why I was kind of focusing on trans phobia and trans issues. And, you know, here we are, with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of bills aimed to erase us and it for which, which is devastating for for us as, as adults, queer adults, but the Forgotten victims of this that that people are forgetting are that the young young folks, it's, you know, sitting in your living room, watching the news, and constantly just seeing these hate bills popping up. Or, you know, you're living in a state that just criminalized, you know, HRT care for kids, and you can't get your, your medications or you're too scared to, to now ask your parents to help you. So I always remember the kids who, who really don't have power, they don't have voices yet. So it's kind of our responsibility as trans elders, queer elders, we're going to stick our faces out there, we're going to let the people that want to cause harm they can, they can attack us, because, you know, we're adults, we've learned the coping skills, we've learned how to cultivate support and how to move through it. And so these younger folks, they don't gotta go through it. So I think, you know, as a drag mother, as a house mother, and as a trans woman, you know, just sticking my, my neck out there and doing things that that is going to maybe cause a little controversy, you know, like doing all of these all ages drag shows, I wrote a children's book actually, that's gonna be published here in a little while, a few months.

Alex Iantaffi: 34:07

Congratulations. That's exciting!

Alice O'Callaghan: 34:10

Thank you. So it Yeah, it's, it's, it's just it's doing things like that you got to I was scared. You know, it's a scary thing when you know that you have people out there that are gonna say You're a pervert and you're gonna harm children and you're a bad influence for children. So it's scary to go into those situations but as an elder, you just kind of trust that I'm going to have my community behind me and I'm just going to I'm going to do it even though you're scared you just you just do it. So that's a whole this this year definitely brought out a warrior in in a lot of us I think and I don't think I'm alone in in feeling that

Alex Iantaffi: 34:56

100% I feel like like you I'm like it's bad enough when they come for us adults right but when they when they start going for children is just like it's it's like seeing all this adults basically bullying children trying to stop children from accessing necessary care, right, or even adults being such bullies to children on social media. Just because this kids are like trans and or queer or gender expansive and loud. It just breaks my heart there are times or when I be like, Can't you see what you're doing? You're a grown adult like bullying this trans kid or gender expansive kid or ridiculing them, how on earth? Can you think that this is? Okay? You know, it's, it's heartbreaking. I'm so excited to hear about your children's book, though I didn't know you've written a children's book, what's the title? And can people preorder it? Or do they need to wait a little longer? Or? Yes,

Alice O'Callaghan: 36:01

no, it's still in the, you know, it's in the printing process. It's called "The Queer World of Miss Cupcake". And one of my childhood friends, we went to school together, she's an extremely talented artist and illustrator. So we collaborated and, and made a Yeah, an amazing 32 Page fully illustrated, children's book all about kind of an introduction at queer culture, queer drag culture, and it's the first children's book that has an openly trans drag queen, autistic lead character. So it's, it's fun, it's very fun. And yeah, that's a whole other whole other venture that's headed our way.

Alex Iantaffi: 36:56

Well, my trans neuro spicy heart is so excited for my younger self, who is definitely going to read this book. And also recommend it to others that that is so exciting. Well, congratulations. Writing a book is not an easy feat, as I well know and I'm so excited to see your book out in the world.

Alice O'Callaghan: 37:22

And I should say Miss Cupcake, Miss Cupcake in that book is also a witch, as a little as a little nod to JK Rowling.

Alex Iantaffi: 37:33

Like so excited that people are seeing this on video are gonna be able to see me bounce just like body reaction when you said that as like not only my like little neurospicy trend site is happy, but somebody who does identify as a way to repay God, it's like, what that's amazing, that excited that talk about some mind blowing, beautiful representation. Ah, thank you for putting that book in the world. That's so wonderful. I feel like that's such a gift to community. And talking about community. One thing that I'm hearing as we're having this conversation is just your love of trans non binary, queer, gender expansive people. And so I'm curious to learn a little bit more about what does trans community mean and as men to you, both in a personal and professional sense, if you want to make those division, which I think are kind of artificial and colonial in some ways, but like, what does trans community mean to you in every aspect of your life? Let's put it that way. That's the better question.

Alice O'Callaghan: 38:39

No, I know, I think that's a really good question. So a lot of the harsh realities that I have come to understand this year, is there such a division between the LGBTQIA plus community you know, a lot of issues is the bigotry still comes from inside the house of LGB in our cisgender folks, there has always been a divide butted heads between, you know, femininity, in gay culture and between trans people, it's just always, it's always been there. And this year, especially, you know, I kind of realized, you know, how important community really is because I've always been a, you know, isolated go getter type gal, and just, you know, do things on my own. And when you experience harm and hate and violence, eventually it just, you just, you can't anymore, you know, you just want to give up. And fortunately, with the work I do, you know, because I am so focused on the integration of the drag industry and community I want it to be, you know, symbiotic. I get to work with amazing, amazing community activist community workers, and in turn, they have been my mentors and have helped me through so many so many things. And so I can say that For me, the trans community here has saved my life multiple times. And we take care of each other. And so, you know, you can see cisgender queer people, you know, if they want to be assholes, they want to do what they want to do, you still got us, you know, we, that is that's the trans community. So there is there is a divide between, you know, the LGBTQ community, and then the that your gender expansive folks, you know, it's just a whole different perspective of the world, it's a whole different, a whole different thing. And I think it was Mother Marsha P. Johnson, that said, you know, people make very quick decisions, very rash decisions that are based off of emotions, and they don't think about it. And, you know, every trans story, every trans experience is going to be different, you're going to hear different things, you know, you're not going to find matching stories, but you take all of those little moments that, that don't seem very significant to a lot of people or they just seem like, Oh, they're making a fuss, or, Oh, that doesn't matter, or that, you combine that and that is our reality, that is a collective reality of of trans people. And that's where I draw my power from my support from trans Northland, you know, being on the board for Trans Northland has really been wonderful, validating and amazing experience. So, trans community is, is important. And so I would say if there's folks out there that that feel isolated, or they feel like no one is there, no one is watching. You know, people forget trans folks, we have felt invisible for a very long time, but we have always been there. And so I would encourage, you know, people to reach out for those resources, those trans resources, and I think they're going to be really surprised because I, I thought I knew everything about the world. And this year really, it It surprised me and for the better and community is, is truly where it's at. We don't really got nothing if we don't have community, and people got to start realizing that we're stronger together than we are divided.

Alex Iantaffi: 42:59

Absolutely, as I was tearing out putting away talking about that, especially when he said that, you know, trans community saved my life. I think he said, you know, multiple times because I really feel that as somebody who lives with complex PTSD and lifelong suicidality, as well as being a therapist, but like, and there's so much shame I know that's one of the reasons why I started talking about it because it's like so many people don't talk about it we have higher rates of suicidality trans community, and also amongst therapists, especially AFAB and trans therapists in but we don't talk about it, right. And so the and just as we get hurting, in relationship, we heal in relationships, and for me, it's like, trans and queer community has saved my life multiple times. So when you were saying that really felt in my body really like you know, just felt it coming through those tears and just the gratitude, you know, both to transgressors who have nurtured community but also current people who keep building community you know, even moving from you know, South Minneapolis to Duluth even just being able to come see that's in it, see the horror shows, right? Am I Well, I'm still getting to know people, but at least I can sit and be in community, as I get to know people and I can be held and nourished in a way that really, sometimes really lifts my spirits when I'm not in a good place. Because drag is about expression and joy and, and you can laugh, you can cry, you can emote re which was and not be alone, right? Because, especially right now, it's a really harsh time to be alone. And to feel alone, I think as trans people in the world, so I love what you said about community it is everything. And that and I wish that people would understand that as well. Sometimes

Alice O'Callaghan: 44:59

it is it's, it is just it's it's wonderful to see, you know, and I'm, you know, I grew up I just not able to socialize, you know, and, and terrified of queer situations, you know, going in with people and not knowing and so I really try to cater to those types of people. So that makes me happy that you feel comfortable that you can just be and sit and just be with people and you know that you're safe at It's really what we strive to do. And I think, and people don't realize, you know, how deadly mental health is for trans folks? Absolutely, you know, violence, violence set aside, which is crazy enough, you know, that mental health part is, is a lie. And it's because of that stigma, you know, the, the lifespan of a trans person, we there isn't even enough data to, to give an accurate age to how long that we live for, because those numbers are so skewed due to suicide, and violence. So that's not goes into, you know, the work with the entertainment industry is people if you're working with trans folk, you really have to be aware of that mental health aspect of putting them in isolation, or, you know, making them feel a certain way. Because, yeah, it is, and, and it's cringy. When people talk, you know, it's like the cringe. But I think transcode, you know, you got to embrace the cringe, because you got to go through it, and you got to address it. And that's when, when growth happens. So if people say I'm cringy, I'm just happy with it, because you just you got to be someone's gotta be.

Alex Iantaffi: 47:03

You and me both work, I used to work a lot more with young people. As a family therapist, I remember some of my team clients going, Alex, you're so weird. And I'm like, you haven't even touched the edges of my weird. This is what happens when you get to grow old as a trans or queer person, you know, and, I mean, there's a part of me that's still getting used to, like, I'm in my 50s, I never thought I'd make it past 30. This is weird. And I know a lot of other trans and queer folks who feel that way. Right? And it's like, because, you know, and our mental health is so bad, because the world is so harmful and hurtful, you know, and I think that needs to be said explicitly, that it's not being trans that causes the mental health issues. It's leaving in a transphobic world, that severely impacts our mental health, and the more we can, that's why I'm so passionate about educating and advocating because the more we can really have the world be a more inclusive, kinder, gentler, softer place to land for trans folks, the better our mental health is going to be, especially families, we know that family acceptance makes pretty much all the difference for trans and queer youth. You know, and so it's that's why I also love the all ages show because I think that that's foster family acceptance and, and even not, you know, sis, that folks who end up having a trans or non binary gender expansive kid, who are maybe totally disconnected from community can come to an all ages show and be like, Oh, this is beautiful, and celebratory, and here's adults were happy to express themselves. And I think that also creates healing in the world. So thank you for doing that. With your work. You're so appreciated.

Alice O'Callaghan: 48:55

You know, every, it's okay to dress up. It's fun. You know, it's, it's just fun, there's no such thing as boy clothes, girl clothes. You know, that's, you don't realize it's kind of scary if you step back and you think about all of the ways that that you know, the US has really marketed you know, cisgender and heterosexual and white supremacist ways of thinking, you know, it is it's just like mind blowing, and but journeys long and hard and you got to dismantle those, those systems. That's why it's important to have a soft place to land absolutely

Alex Iantaffi: 49:44

in what could the world be if we all felt like this gender liberation that we could just wear the clothes we like, wear the makeup, we like, have our hair at the lamp we want it to have right it's just like, regardless, and I want this for anybody, I don't even just want this for trans people I want this for cis people to part of my passion in life is to really help cis folks understand how gender liberation is for them to, you know, in like, it's actually essential and how that gender binary is so deeply linked with colonialism and racism and ableism and all those other things and then, really, that we can all be more expansive, we can all breathe a little easier. We can all be a little bit more joyful. It doesn't just have to be During drag story hour, a drag show this could be our lives every day expressing ourselves authentically, if we let ourselves and each other do that, yeah.

Alice O'Callaghan: 50:45

And I think that's the, all of the loud voices, all of the, that hate, you know, is, is it's being directed at us, you know, the trans folk, and we're just, you know, little fluffy bunnies, you know, we are harmless, we are helpless, you know, in the ladder of oppression, you know, what are you know, we're, we're just here trying to live. And so I think that all those loud voices, all those angry folks, it's anger. It's, and we know, when people talk about us, or they talk smack it's has nothing to do with us. It's about them. And I think there's, you know, when you're angry, there's a fear there. And it's what, what do we have to do to, to kind of make that jump into, don't be scared, don't be afraid of those parts of yourself that are, that are coming out or that are are triggered? You know, let's embrace the cringe and dive in deep, you know, and it's like, how, how do we get over there. And that's, that's an everyday everyday movement. That's what we do. That's the fight

Alex Iantaffi: 52:08

the fight every day. I'm gonna have this conversation for a long time. But I want to be respectful of your time and your evening. So I am going to ask you the question I always ask all my guests, which is, is there anything we haven't talked about? That you were hoping we would get towards you if you're like, Yeah, we talked about what we wanted to talk about.

Alice O'Callaghan: 52:32

No, I think I think it's it's so generous to let your guests just blabber on and on for an hour. I mean, it's nice to, to get to move through the conversations and and say whatever you want to say. So no, I think I'm pretty good.

Alex Iantaffi: 52:49

Well, I think it's a gift that my guests had or blubber out about things that are actually in beautiful ways. I think you've said a lot of really good, amazing things today. So thank you for that. And if people want to find out more about you, or it's in a CD, or or get your book, where should they go online? Where can people follow you find you? What are the platforms that you're on that you would appreciate people coming to find you and follow you in a supportive manner? Of course. Yeah.

Alice O'Callaghan: 53:22

So if you want to support Zenith City Horror or attend our shows, all of our event information is on our Facebook or Instagram, Zenith City Horror. You can also you know, for my projects independently and things that I'm doing you can follow Miss Cupcake Drag on Instagram, or Alice O'Callaghan, on on Facebook. And also for ticketing and, and those types of things. www.zch.gay is our website.

Alex Iantaffi: 53:57

I love that it's zch.gay. And I will make sure that I put all of that if all of those links are gonna be in the episode description. So dear listeners if you didn't catch them, it's okay. You can just look at the episode description on whichever platform you're listening, or watching this episode on. And you'll find those links there. For tonight, I'm just going to express a lot of gratitude. Thank you, Alice, this was such a wonderful conversation. I appreciate your time. And I also truly appreciate the world you're doing in the work, the work you're doing in the world wrong way round. I appreciate the work you're doing in the world. It's been a long day. And yeah, I feel so fortunate that I get to be in the same geographical location as you and get to see those shows. And if you're not, don't worry, follow them on Instagram. They put some really wonderful photos of dentists at our shows and Instagram so you can enjoy it that way if you're not local to us. All right, well, thank you so much and dear gender stories, listeners. Thank you for listening or watching if you're watching this on YouTube, I appreciate each and every one of you. And I hope that you can find beautiful community and queer Joy wherever you are.