To See or Be Seen Nonbinary Tarot with PJ Desrochers

PJ Desrochers is a visual artist who explores their nonbinary humanness through art. PJ creates images, builds sculptural installations and immersive experiences of their
gender and a life well-lived. Their media originates with photographic self portraits printed on transparency film. PJ then builds creations by layering the transparent images and connecting them quite often using fingerprinted scotch tape and fishing line to found objects. These Photographic Assemblages can often be found installed within the natural beauty of central Vermont where they photograph and film these beloved creations to become gallery accessible and presented for your viewing pleasure.

Project website: https://www.11toseeandbeseen11.com/

Kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/toseeandbeseen/to-see-and-be-seen-nonbinary-tarot

PJ Derochers website: http://www.pjdesrochersart.com/

Transcript

Alex Iantaffi: 0:39

Hello and welcome to another episode of gender stories I know I'm always very excited about every guest but I'm Extra extra excited when are people that I know and love and so today I am Extra extra excited because I got to interview PJ Desrochers. PJ is a visual artist who explores their non binary humanists through art, PJ creates images built sculptural installations, and immersive experiences of their gender and a life well lived. Their media originates with photographic self portraits printed on transparency film, PJ then builds creations by layering the transparent images, and connecting them quite often using fingerprinted scotch tape, and fishing line to found objects. This photographic assemblages can often be found installed within the natural beauty of Central Vermont, where the Photograph and film this beloved creations to become gallery accessible and precepted, for your viewing pleasure MPJ as exhibited all over Vermont and beyond Vermont. And now they have this wonderful project that's very exciting to see in in which is what we're gonna be talking about today. So welcome PJ to gender stories. Thank you so much for making the time to be talking with me today. Yeah, absolutely.

PJ Desrochers: 1:58

Thank you so much for having me, Alex, I really appreciate it. And admirer of you and the show. And so it's just this really lovely,

Alex Iantaffi: 2:08

thank you. It's so lovely to have you here and like fellow therapist, and then in the artist at the pleasure of a little preview of your tarot deck. And I'm so so excited. So let's start there, you have the Kickstarter that's about to launch, and which will by the time this episode releases next week, so yes, tell the listeners about what you're doing and what this Kickstarter is about.

PJ Desrochers: 2:36

So I am launching a tarot deck called To See and Be Seen Nonbinary tarot deck, you can if you're watching on YouTube, you can see it kind of hanging out behind me in the background. Those are kind of photos of the images of the cards. But if you're just a listener, there's a grid of colorful conceptual images that are behind me that looks kind of like a quilt. And those are the images that will be on the To See and Be Seen Nonbinary tarot deck that launches on Kickstarter, this Saturday, November 11, at 1111. Eastern Standard Time, and we'll be open and up for 22 days for folks to contribute. So if you want a deck, this is the way to do it, is to contribute and all of the reward levels, except for one, I'll have a deck as part of it. So that is the hope to get everyone that wants a deck and is able to contribute and then hopefully beyond there we can, we can push and get decks to folks that can't meet that level. So

Alex Iantaffi: 3:56

I love that. And if there are any folks who are listening, or like, oh, I would love to get that for my non binary friend or family member or neighbor. This is a great opportunity, you know, get more than one that got a deck for you get a deck for a friend maybe cannot afford to support the Kickstarter right now. I love it. Why? And non binary terror attacks? There are lots of teridax out there, right? And there are some, you know, so why did you decide to make your own? I'm so curious about that. Well, I have been a tarot reader for 30 years. And I as just a visual artist and an extroverted person and just a person that needs like external imagery to be able to understand like, that's how I came to kind of understand and know my inner interior and have it feel like held and validated more so than other places in my life. So relationships do that. Yes, but this really taro always helped me develop a really deep relationship and knowing and understanding of myself. So that's kind of the taro has just been a huge gift and tool development tool for me the past 30 years and then when I came out is non binary like later in life, so I'm 53 now I was 48 when I came out, I I found like If my ducks to not resonate quite as well, because oftentimes tarot decks are pretty binary in nature. And I would have some dysphoric responses to my readings or need to do a lot of mental work in the readings to have them resonate in the same way. So I felt a little adrift in my spiritual tool, or the way that I connected with myself. And that's what got me thinking about making a deck. That was, I guess, de gendered, so to speak, or gender expansive, which is really more how I like to look at it is that it just, it's, it just expands. And so that's, that's sort of what got that idea rolling, for me the marrying of those two of like, this tool that I loved, and then there being sort of a mismatch with it. So I made it for myself, essentially. And now I'm hoping that it will be for other people as well that might feel similarly to me, or wanting to explore their gender in a way that it doesn't have to land in such a binary category or space and time with within a spiritual practice or practice of care that tarot is. I love that. And I love how you're talking about Taro. Both as a spiritual practice, but also like a relational practice to self that's very much my relationship with Tarot as well. And I allow it helps us yes, maybe connect to something greater than us if that's our belief system. But for me, it is really about that deep relationship. And so out those binaries and more traditional decks can really get in the way of us connecting, I'm very much resonated with that reasoning. And not only did you make your tarot deck, but you bought you brought your beautiful art to make in this deck. And so you want to tell us a little bit how you organized like maybe the different suits of the deck or kind of, you know, is there people imagery? Is it just nature? Like what what can people act if they kind of get your deck?

PJ Desrochers: 7:56

Um, let's see, well, people can expect, I actually am the main character of the deck, I am a self portrait artist. And so I have a huge gallery of images to choose from. So all of the images that I worked with are all my own photography, and all of the suits our bodies are come from bodies of artwork that I had completed, well, prior to even making the deck. So there's a way that I say, like, this deck was ahead of me, kind of like a lot of my art, like, a lot of my art seems to be ahead of me, I'm like making it that I'm like, Oh, that makes sense, while I'm making it, like six months, three years later. So you will see me and see my face, but it kind of through the years so there's really different physical and body and face. It's and a lot of it's very abstract. So I am conceptual artists. So I often will make pieces that might have just my hand on it layered in with other objects from nature, or Windows or mirrors or so everything's very layered. So every card probably has five different photographic images in it layered. There are only two in the deck that are actually single images. But everything else of the 78 card deck is layered. So, what you can expect to see as far as the gender expansiveness as I took some of the Major Arcana cards which I call archetype hulls because again, Alex I'm very similar to you in that this Taro is is a relational deck I'm a relational therapist. And so my lens for how this decks work is about a relationship with yourself and about really trusting yourself or kind of trusting others hence like to see and be seen. You know, so the scene of yourself and what you want reflected back to you so I really see taro as a reflective tool. I'm getting a little off track. Okay, I'm like trying to track your question and then I'm like, Oh, there I go.'m happy to be me. All right, that's okay. So as far as the, the archetypal roles, there are 22 of those and about half of them, I, the ones that I felt, caused me dysphoria, or I felt were overtly gendered, say like high priestess, is in my deck is called witness. So High Priestess is really like a deep scene and a deep knowing and our deep intuition and so witness to me is, is that it comprises that like you're witnessing something in yourself or something in others that's greater than you that you're also a part of. And so I tried to find names that I felt captured the essence of the major arcana into more of an archetypal mode. So like, Alex, you have the discernment tattoo. And there's a discernment card. Yes, card number 20, which is typically the judgment card in a major arcana. And I like discernment as a way of making choice. And so judgment is just to me a little heavier handed. And discernment almost puts that choice in your hand like that discernment is it can be making it really difficult choice. But there's something about it where judgment feels like it's coming from above you. And we've learned that feels like it just feels more more non binary to me a little more, like in choice a little more, both. And so those are ways that I kind of infused some therapeutic concepts into the deck as well. So not only are there sort of gender expansive concepts, but they're I mean, this is, this debt comes out of my language, which is a relational, therapeutic language that I have used not only in connection with clients, but just in connection with myself through the years, so

Alex Iantaffi: 13:16

yeah, that's all I feel like the whether people are non binary or not, when they use your deck, they're really going to be invited into expanding their understanding of those cards of those major arcana or this minor arcana. And I think that that's a beautiful gift to anybody, no matter what their gender, I think two, and beyond those binaries are beautiful. And I love the title of your project to see in MVC. And I think that's something that a lot of people struggle with, right, a lot of us struggle to truly see others, you know, without all the baggage and lenses have our own identity and experiences, and to feel seen by others, right, without all of that kind of cloud of trans identities and experiences. And so I'm curious about where where that name came from, even, like, how did you find the name of to see and be seen?

PJ Desrochers: 14:12

Well, I think, again, it's, it's, it starts with with me, and just a deep yearning and desire to see and to understand and to be seen and to be understood by others. And I felt really compelled to try to make a product or make something that we can have before us that can offer that to us on a daily basis. And particularly as like a trans non binary human, don't often read how I'm seeing. And so when I pull a card, I'm always seen. And it's not like, oh, maybe I'll be seen today, maybe I won't be it's like, every day, and being a person that really values reflection as a way to understand myself. That also is is the nature of the deck like just that value that I have and that just I don't know if it's a value, but it's a real like, knowing deep knowing of myself and what I need and I I make the assumption that I'm not the only one.

Alex Iantaffi: 15:29

I think that's a very solid assumption to make you It's such a deeply human need to, to see and be seen and to feel mirrored by something that often is really missing for many of us kind of trans, or non binary, or gender expansive folks to kind of see ourselves and be seen for who we truly are out in the world can be really challenging. I, that we're talking about your deck, and I wonder what it would? Yeah, whether you would feel like roots, please added that. Thank you. I say it out loud, then it's easier for them. So we're talking about your beautiful deck. And I wonder if we could pull a card from your deck. Of course, when, like listening and not watching on YouTube, you'll describe the card and what the color card about maybe whenever an intention and pulling this card.

PJ Desrochers: 16:29

Sure. What do you think

Alex Iantaffi: 16:31

what's maybe yeah, maybe if listeners are struggling to feel seen or see others, especially around gender, let's see what guidance maybe the deck might have for folks who are struggling to feel seen or to see others for who they are.

PJ Desrochers: 16:51

That sounds really good. So I'm going to just hold up the deck here. So this actually, this is the deck that came from the printer, this is the first paper copy that I've had, I've been working with the transparent copy for the past two years. And so this is my first like, copy, copy. So this is the back of the deck. It's nice and nice and thick. So I'm just gonna give it some shuffles. And we're gonna think about our intention. And when I pull this card, and when we pull this card, Alex actually ask you to kind of kind of go through a series of questions, which are sort of how I like the stick to work. But what is it that what is it that you feel in response to the image? What is it that you're thinking? Is there anything that you're noticing or things that you know already about this car? And then we'll kind of read it from that place like for the collective for the listeners? We love it. Questions? Do you have any shuffle amount that you like, or?

Alex Iantaffi: 18:06

Oh, I like cutting the deck into three and then reassembling it. Okay. I'm doing cutting in three. Oop. All right, top card. Let's do it.

PJ Desrochers: 18:27

All right. Oh, here we have the nine of golden portals. Golden portals is the suit of fire the elemental suit of fire suit of the soul or spirit. You on this card? For listeners, you'll see nine layered golden circles that look kind of lit with light. Underneath a bear tree escapes. So there are thin tree limbs that kind of layer up and over these. These this nine here.

Alex Iantaffi: 19:12

So beautiful. I love it. Thank you. Oh, that is such a beautiful card. Let's talk about it.

PJ Desrochers: 19:23

Yeah, what are your What are your thoughts or your feels? Hmm?

Alex Iantaffi: 19:28

Well, I'm thinking about nine, right? Because I'm out how for me when we get into like 8, 9, 10. It's towards the end of some sort of journey, right? And about our intention around if people are struggling to see or feel seen how that is an ongoing journey. Right? And so we might be at the end of the journey, but we're quite a way in. So and that really resonates with my experience of sometimes when I felt like isolated or not having enough closeness or intimacy with people I've had to ask myself, How am I closing myself off to that connection to that in right because to be seen, there's a vulnerability to it. And so even those beautiful kind of, there's a warmth to the card with all the golden light that there's the warmth. And I love that it's a bear tree because I love bears. So I I don't know if that's got anything to do with the reading, but bears have a lot of significance for me. In for me, bears also represent very much both protection and strength in terms of community, and the protection and strength that comes from community. So when I'm thinking about the card, I'm also thinking about the abundance of strength and protection that we find in community as trans or non binary gender expansive people, and not just connection with like, maybe we're in a place where there's nobody else who looks like us. But there are gender blessed ancestors and transistors and so connection. Now just like in the community of humans, but also community of non human animals, Greenblatt's ancestors, I don't know that's kind of where my mind went with that card. I think. I think it opened some portals in my mind, apparently.

PJ Desrochers: 21:41

It certainly did. So I heard you say kind of interconnect like the interconnectivity that we all have and how we talk about choice like we're making, we make a choice to sort of be seen or not not be seen and the vulnerability in that when we allow ourselves to, but the tree being something that's supportive, but also can be you know, a little bit like blocking, like how we can kind of hold ourselves back a little bit too, you can see that in the images are oh my god, something over here.

Alex Iantaffi: 22:20

There's always something beeping in our lives, I feel like it's true. And I love I love your connection with the nine because I definitely resonate with the nine in this card, myself has such a number of completions and things really come into a close and what I picked up in this card, which I haven't really seen before and so what's happening for me with these printed on this white paper is it's almost like a new deck to me that I am seeing things I have never seen and this is my art and I played I've been working with this card for two years. So it's just interesting but I was like It looks like it's like burning through a little bit. So green a bit like collectively what we're setting a flame to and kind of clearing out you know, using smoke the clear fire to clear or to light up sort of parts of ourselves like there's a letting go in that and there's also a lighting up like you know, some being to being on fire and letting those parts of ourselves be seen our fiery parts I love that and I love what you said about the fire and the clearing as well because I feel like we are clearing a lot of kind of systemic barriers and oppressive systems in some ways and collectively and so that that relationship between the individual and the collective I think feels part of that those weigh heavy on our spirits. Yeah, and that that is so such a beautiful card. Yeah, I'm thinking about the intention that I mentioned around you know, people are struck fillings seen or being seen and, and this beautiful card and now there's like this fire that piece is very yeah, there's this form this connection with about interdependence. Yeah, anything else that it's coming through for you from this card around that

PJ Desrochers: 24:49

I was wondering if it's okay if I pulled out the guide map because I wrote a guide map to go with this deck and so I read what I had written in there just to see because oftentimes, like with this deck, I really like folks to read and like get their sense and connect and if there still feels like there's more it could be good to bust into the guide map. So if you're

Alex Iantaffi: 25:17

okay, that's what I taro for myself. It's like I look at the cards and see what it feels like but like to go to the booklet to be like, well, but what else have I missed?

PJ Desrochers: 25:29

Yeah, and I just made the what comes with this deck. It's It doesn't look brief. But every thing about that connects, this really shows how the cards are interconnected and interrelated with each other. So Oh,

Alex Iantaffi: 25:46

that's beautiful. Like this beautiful. cannot see it. I'm very excited. I can't wait to get my hands on one of your tarot decks for the Kickstarter.

PJ Desrochers: 25:57

See. So with this guide map, you can open it up, it opens up like kind of an old school map, as well as for panels. And then on the inside the top says to see in BC nonbinary, tarot guide map, and there's four columns, numbers, archetype bowls, elementals, and relational goals. And those are the names of all the different cards in the deck. So with this card, we pulled the nine of golden portals, we're gonna look up nine, like number nine, which both Alex and I said was completion. And then with the golden portal, so I'll go to the Elementals. Because golden portals is that one of the elemental sign of fire, and vitality, and in traditional Tarot is the one suit. And I'm gonna go down the column to this number nine, and the words are time touches time. So with this map, I like to gather a couple of the words into like a little poem or a little incantation of some sort. So is there a way Alex for you that either completion, or vitality, or golden or soul or time touches time works? A statement that connects to the intention?

Alex Iantaffi: 27:39

I love that I'm thinking about it, because there's so much in there. But I think the first thing that comes to mind for me is our journey to see and be seen is never fully done. That time brings us vitality, and sometimes completion. Yeah, that's what's coming. For me.

PJ Desrochers: 28:05

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think in those moments, when time does touch time, there is this brief moment of completion of like, Oh, I get it. And then we continue on.

Alex Iantaffi: 28:18

Except, like, you know, I'm the computer, never have completion, but there are those moments are like, just like this precious, almost like snowglobe moments, I call them where, ah, and then it's like, so ephemeral, that love it. Yeah.

PJ Desrochers: 28:34

I think next was the intention really well. Oh,

Alex Iantaffi: 28:39

thank you. This is so fun to get to do a reading with you and pull a card. And I'm just really thinking about what a wonderful tool Taro is, but also what a wonderful tool art is. Right? And as well, being it, a therapist or an artist, and yourself or trade artist, and I hope you don't mind me asking, but I'm curious about what role as your art, especially your self portrait art had in your own gender journey, if any, right because you, you take portraits of yourself and falls like that. I don't know, for me, I think a lot of selfies and partially that has a lot to do with like, see myself as a trans and not just as a trans person, but also as a disabled person, as an aging person as a person moving through space and time, like, so I'm just really curious about the your art and how that potentially contributed to your own gender journey.

PJ Desrochers: 29:43

It's, it's interesting, because it contributed to everything. I mean, I think without my art, I wouldn't have noticed or maybe seen as soon or understood that part of myself. But like, every, like when I came out as queer, it's like comes out as a whisper in me for some reason, and then when it's out it's like really out. But um, so what happened is I noticed in my self portraiture, photography, which I use in a real similar way as you Alex, but initially when I started to use it, I had been recently divorced and then out of very challenging really relationship and had just kind of lost my sense of self and the photography and self portraiture particularly really helped me a lot like taro see myself. And so what happened is I was looking back through my photographs or a period of time, and I had only taken pictures of portions of my body. And stead of either full images or front face images, I just had like shoulder or feet or arms or like, really fractured. So I took, I printed up all of those images, and I put them all up on the wall to sort of assemble myself as a body. And then each one of those images, I printed onto transparency, and this was my first use of transparency film and my photography. And I built a sculpture that had these images of these parts of my body that made a hole that moved, and then installed that in nature. But what I found out while I was making that making those pixels, I was just like, why, why aren't you taking images of yourself like what's going on, like something had really changed. And, and I do really think that there was a fracturing of what I would call like womanhood, what I would call like, how I saw or helped my body, and like there was sort of a fracturing and an opening and reconfiguring of myself into non binary form. And so through my art, I sort of saw that before my eyes, and is, it was really beautiful and powerful process. But without that reflection, like without that practice, of the, the selfie or the self portraiture care that I was up to, I don't think I would have seen what was happening and been able to hear the Whisper. Because I do think non binary doesn't speak in the same languages, binary gender does. And it just took, took me that to under to understand that for myself, and to like, be able to allow myself to shape shift, which is what it felt like I did into you know, I don't know if you had this experience when you come out, but when I was coming out people like oh, yeah, that makes total sense about me.

Alex Iantaffi: 33:48

So that is that's, that is the, that's the coming out story was coming out to myself, and having my art show it show me the way. I love that. And I mean, to be clear yourself. Forge rates are art and so, so beautiful, you know, compared selfies, but I think there is this desire, right to like, see ourselves and reflect ourselves through art and, and I think it's so interesting, because I don't know if you've had this experience, but I definitely was told I was bad at art. When I was growing up a lot of people who as adults don't engage with creating or making things because the thing art is just for like, accomplished artists, right? We studied it. And yeah, and I wonder if you have ever had any hesitation or shyness around owning also your artist identity not just your non binary identity, but you you know, really moving into that artist identity for yourself.

PJ Desrochers: 34:53

Yeah, it's been a it's been a struggle. It's, it's my favorite place. I definitely, yeah, that art is is where I want to be and making art is where I want to be. And it's definitely been a journey to get here. I've been as fortunate in that I grew up my mom is an artist. She's a watercolor painter. And so we did our all the time and creative stuff. So I had a lot of confidence. But I wasn't the kind of artist that my mom was like I'm not a representational artist. And so I just never thought that I was an artist. And then I discovered like that I'm really good with collage and like image making and imagery and photography. It took me a while to own that as real for myself. And I think that I'm just going to make a guess here, but my, my tendency to be a person that wants to fit in as a way to survive, which I don't need as much anymore. I think, also, like, I think about how I made a choice to not to go to regular college and not art school. And I wonder like, Oh, I wonder if I went to the Art Institute of Seattle? Like, would I have made fashion like, it just makes me wonder, I just wonder that. So, yeah, but I had this funny experience when I did go to an artists retreat, and really took a see in myself as an artist, and was kind of doubting that. And there was a person there who was like, you know, like, you, like, take a chair and like float chairs in the water and like, take pictures of it. Like, I don't know, what other kind of proof you can beat. That you are, and I was like, oh, yeah, that's right. So not, not the usual way of like, looking at a chair. And so that, that those kinds of reflections really helped, like people that sort of see and recognize that me.

Alex Iantaffi: 37:27

And how that connects to what we've been talking about all through the interview, which is to see NBC and right, because it's not just under it's also so many different aspects of our identities. elabo, you know, in a way you like to see as an artist in that retreat, but you also were reflected back by other artists who were like, Hey, I see, I see you as an artist, right. And growing up, your art is different from the art that's getting made around you that might not feel as large, right. And so this really comes back to just how foundational to us as humans, it is to see ourselves, be seen by those around us that interdependence we have with those around us. That's so beautiful. I feel like I could talk with you forever about this topic, and your terror that go through all your cards, but I'm going to be respectful of your time and not do that. So I'll ask you the question that I always ask all of my guests at the end of the interview, which is, is there anything we have not talked about that you were hoping we would cover for our listeners? So anything that we have not touched on yet? That you want to make? Sure,

PJ Desrochers: 38:40

yes. I did want to make sure that everybody knows the difference suits of debt because we didn't get to talk about that. So the suits into To See and Be Seen Nonbinary tarot deck are those are their I call them Elementals. And so we already met the suit of golden portals, which is that the elemental suit of fire and our soul, like our spirit of vitality, comes through. And then there's the suit of ribbons. And ribbons is the elemental suit of water. And so that's the suit the suit all about our fields and our emotions. And like, I like ribbons for like how they roll through. And so just to keep in mind, like each one of these suits were individual bodies of work that I created artistically. So I had a golden Portal series, I had a ribbon series. The next one would be Windows. And so Windows is the elemental suit of air and it represents I call it brain support, but it represents our mind. And it's really based windows are based on the concept of Dan Siegel's, a window of tolerance, which is one of my favorite therapeutic concepts, which is just getting right to the heart and like holding yourself in that heart of where you're making a change and moving from one thought to the next one place to next and that just this place, that that kind of holds you see your brain can catch up and burn a new neural pathway. So I love the love that one In dos suit for our minds, and then the final suit is elemental suit of its chairs. And that represents Earth, our Earth, our groundedness. And it's the embodied suit. And so when you think about a chair, or sitting in a chair, kind of, sometimes we feel comfortable, sometimes we don't, but we're typically like at rest. And so I like to think of that suit is the suit where, where, like at rest and present in our bodies and what touches our bodies. And yeah, if not also was then one of my very favorite bodies of artwork, I have the chair series. And so all of the images from those series are all embedded into these into this deck. So it really is like a conglomeration of, of my work my artwork through time, like in these cards for everyone, which makes me really happy.

Alex Iantaffi: 41:38

That's amazing. I also think that's the most poetic and beautiful description of the window of tolerance concept I've ever heard it therapists get Spoken like a true artist.

PJ Desrochers: 41:51

And that means a lot to me coming from you, Alex, thank you so much.

Alex Iantaffi: 41:55

I yeah, I am so excited about this deck. And I'm so excited by your art. So if people want to go on Kickstarter, and make sure that within those 22 days that the Kickstarter is going to be open for the get a DAC where should they go? Should they Google To See and Be Seen Nonbinary tarot deck in on the Kickstarter site, or Yes, I will, of course, the link to the episode description. But you know, in case people don't look at the episode description, let's reach out to

PJ Desrochers: 42:22

To See and Be Seen Nonbinary tarot deck through Kickstarter. Also, I have a landing page, which is 11, to see and be seen eleven.com. And so that gets you connected. If you want to learn more about my art, there's a link there. If you want Instagram, there's a link there, Kickstarter has link. There's a newsletter that I'll be starting up in the new year that you can sign up for there, if you want for all the updates on product development and things I hope to be doing in the future for to see and be seen. So. Yeah, love

Alex Iantaffi: 43:00

it. Well, I'll make sure that all those links are in the episode description. So if you ask what PJ just said, Don acetate to go in the episode description either to whichever podcast platform you're listening on, or through the YouTube channel. If that's if you're watching the episode, and make sure you click that link, go support the Kickstarter, follow PJ's beautiful work on Instagram. And, yeah, I am so excited about this deck being out in the world. Anything else you want to share with our listeners before we say goodbye?

PJ Desrochers: 43:38

Just so much gratitude. And thanks for Alex for hosting and group for editing. And for all of you who are listening. I just really appreciate your care and your support and being able to talk about what I love. It's such a gift. So thank you so much. I just love to talk about this stuff. So it's exciting.

Alex Iantaffi: 44:05

It is exciting. It's been such a pleasure to talk with you PJ. Thank you so much for making the time to talk beautiful non binary deck To See and Be Seen Nonbinary tarot deck and dear gender stories listeners until next time, I hope that you all feel reflected your beautiful selves reflected back at you from those around you. Until next time. Bye