Masculinity in Transition with K. Allison Hammer

K. Allison Hammer is assistant professor and coordinator of women, gender, and sexuality studies at Southern Illinois University. 

Masculinity in Transition traces the roots of “toxic masculinity,” showing that while toxic strains of masculinity are mainly associated with straight, white men, trans and queer masculinities often reiterate similar patterns of behavior. Arguing that these malignant forms of masculinity can be displaced, K. Allison Hammer’s bold rethinking lays bare the underlying fragility of normative masculinity.

Link to more information about the book or to order: 

https://www.upress.umn.edu/book-division/books/masculinity-in-transition 

Transcript

Alex Iantaffi: 0:37

Hello, and welcome to another episode of gender stories. And I, as ever, I know I'm always excited, but I really am excited to be talking today with Professor K Allison Hummer, who is assistant professor and coordinator of women Gender and Sexuality Studies of Southern Illinois University, as well as having published a book that I think just came out yesterday, actually October 17. Masculinity and transition, which I'm very excited to be talking with Allison about. They've also published extensively in academic journals, ranging from Disability Strategy studies, trans studies, gender studies, masculinities, and have a forthcoming book chapter on book banning so many things that we could talk about. And that we're even going to talk about the board, the Barbie movie, little spoiler for you, listeners, or those of you watching on YouTube. So welcome. Hi, listen, thank you for making time for this podcast today.

K. Allison Hammer: 1:34

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. I love the show. And I'm just thrilled to be here.

Alex Iantaffi: 1:42

It's wonderful to have you here. It always makes me miss academia and a little bit when I talk to other scholars. But then I talk to colleagues and I remember what life is like, and it's short lived.

K. Allison Hammer: 1:55

Yeah, it's just such a thrill to be sort of outside of that frame to to just be able to have a conversation where we can put my ideas like into a different frame and talk like really?

Alex Iantaffi: 2:07

Absolutely, yes, yes. I'm excited about that, too. So I really want to talk about your book, masculinity in transition. But first of all, let's talk about masculinity studies, I remember that, you know, that the emergence of masculinity studies, you know, a very long time ago, I used to teach in what used to be women's studies, actually, at the time. That's what my doctor is. And I remember people having actually pretty conflicting feelings in some ways around the field of masculinity studies as it emerge. And so for the listeners who don't know what that is, what, what is the field of masculinity studies?

K. Allison Hammer: 2:45

Yeah, I think it really emerged, like out of some of the men's movement activity in the 70s. So that's some of the root systems like where men were trying to sort of, like, reclaim their masculinity, but also like, kind of critique it, but not really, and a lot of it was in the White sis hat framework. And so a lot of that field also developed differently from like masculinity and queer theory. So we have each set Eve Sedgwick, coming out talking about masculinity, we have sort of Jack Halberstam coming out talking about masculinity. But those two fields really developed pretty separately from one another. And so I think there's a move recently, and, you know, one of my mentors, scholar mentors has been very active and trying to change the direction of the field, trying to make it more comparative, trying to make it more inclusive of diverse masculinities. And so I think there are changes, but I think it's, it's very stubborn, to move out of that frame. And to have also some interplay between the study of Trans and Queer masculinities. And whites has had masculinities. So that's a little bit of the basics of where the field has been. But I think like I said, it's moving in a really different direction.

Alex Iantaffi: 4:06

It really is, I mean, even compared to say, Oh, my God, how long ago did I start doing my PhD? Fair two years ago, almost, you know, when I was initially women's that is, I feel like, a lot of the critique was that like, are actually men truly engaging in deconstructing masculinity? Or is this just a way to perpetuate a lot of this kind of similar systems right, of oppression? And I'm one of the things I love about your book is that it does really bring into conversation, you know, trans studies with masculinity, the studies, Queer Studies, he addresses capitalism and addresses kind of, you know, how we cannot talk about gender without talking about race, right? It's a beautiful intersectional book, I think. So what kind of moved you to kind of write this book, right, there are so many things that we focus on in our style you wanted to show it

Unknown: 5:05

came yesterday, and I think the spine like really resonates very nicely with this kind of media slider here. I love this feature that they added to it. So this is the real live object. I love it. I definitely want to talk about that. I think that you know, my initial interest in masculinity came out of female masculinity and sort of my own doorway into thinking of my own relationship to masculinity, which is You know, my coming out story is very long, but starts kind of late in life and took many twists and turns. But my initial coming out as a lesbian really took place through female masculinity through Jack Halberstam work, which that book just changed my life. I mean, at the time, when I read it, I really didn't know what it meant for me. And it took a while to kind of see where it would go. And then, you know, when I came out as a lesbian, I was in a straight marriage, and then came out as a lesbian, and that had many twists and turns as well. And then, you know, came out as non binary around 2018. And, you know, for, for me who, you know, I'm 49. So that word was not present at all, like, oh, it was no understanding of non binary like, I think like kids today have such the wonderful, rich vocabulary for talking about gender and sexuality that I didn't have. And so coming out as non binary also dovetailed with things happening with me, too, and the culture. And what happened around me too, and toxic masculinity being such a topic. I mean, you were sending me articles about masculinity all the time. But in a lot of ways, it was kind of a Redux of what we see in masculinity studies, a lot of it was about white men, and how they could do better. Right? Like I remember Anna sales on Deus Ex money Podcast coming out with an episode called manhood now, where she interviewed all of these men about like, well, what have you learned, you know, to do differently, and it was kind of, you know, very shallow, you know, it doesn't really get to, you know, the critique of white supremacy or the critique of hetero patriarchy. But one thing I thought about as well, why aren't queer and trans masculinities considered part of masculinities tests? Like, why are they separated out so much. And one thing that happened that really transformed me was a class that I taught on critical masculinity studies. And it was right at that 2018 moment where Brett Kavanaugh was being confirmed. And we watched those confirmation hearings together. And it was just kind of, you know, the word patriarchy started to be used again, which had been really retired. Absolutely, I was too blunt.

Alex Iantaffi: 8:02

I heard that word in a long time. And all of a sudden, it was everywhere on social media. Yes.

Unknown: 8:06

Right. Yeah. And so the class though, was really interesting, because they were all different kinds of people. You know, there were black men, there were trans men who are non binary folks, black women, white women, international students, it was almost like, everyone wanted to talk about this. And I think it became really important for me to situate it within the culture itself, and not off in some side territory of queer and trans SNESs. But to really put it into conversation of like, what do queer and trans masculinities offer, they offer quite a lot, I would say, for undoing normative toxic masculinity. And so that was a lot of it came out of that moment, really, the direction of the book took off from there.

Alex Iantaffi: 8:59

I love that. And you mentioned toxic masculinity. So for our listeners who maybe don't know what that means, how would you define toxic masculinity? Or how would you describe the idea of toxic masculinity?

Unknown: 9:14

Right, that's a really good question. Um, you know, I really critique the term in my book, because one of the things that happened out of me too, is that it became about, you know, putting on trial, various bad apples, and those were the toxic ones, or it was really the extreme ones who are toxic. When I really think it's about looking at, you know, the more daily kinds of violences the toxic masculinity, you know, is all about. And for me, it came down to really three areas. So I talked about normative masculinity instead of toxic for that reason, because I think that toxic really pushed us in a direction of thinking about Trump quite a lot. Yeah, Jeffrey Epstein, you know, these men that we can also talk about what actually changed for me too, which I think is a really important thing to consider, and we can talk about it in light of the Barbie movie or whatever. Like, you know, I think that the tendency there was to want to incarcerate too and that was the solution was incarcerate, and then we'll be rid of it. But that's not how toxic masculinity works. Like if you think of the term toxic, it spreads

Alex Iantaffi: 10:33

exists At least it's like a poison, right? It's like something toxic in the air. I often describe like, you know, cisgender ism or transphobia. Like the air we breathe, right? It gets into our lungs into our body minds, and we just reproduce it without even thinking about it. And so that toxicity that's in the air from normative

Unknown: 10:55

I love that idea that you breathe it in even you do

Alex Iantaffi: 10:59

you breathe it in Africa, you know, to me, that's how it feels, right? The words the culture, the songs, the movies, the intergenerational familiar patterns. I mean, I'm passionate about it that wrote a book called Gender trauma. I love this idea that oh, right. It's part of that kind of ongoing settler colonial project. And I love that you highlighted the normativity aspect, right? Because in a way, I really feel that this idea that well is just those men over here, we're doing the harm. And if we get rid of that, or if we imprison them, then everybody else will be okay. Is a very colonial white supremacist idea, right? It's an all or nothing good, or bad perpetrators and victims, all this binaries, something that I'm also not a big fan of, obviously, in every way. And I think that's one of the things I love about your book that you challenge some of those binaries. You know, when we really look at kind of toxic masculinity, it's not about imprisoning a few men, or a few bad apples or teaching boys to do better. It's really questioning the whole system of masculinity. Right?

Unknown: 12:15

Exactly. Like that's, that was one of the main sort of takeaways from that whole moment. And it really, in my opinion, and I could be wrong, but in my opinion, it really faded also, until maybe Barbie. I mean, maybe the Barbie movement is like a resurgence of me, too.

Alex Iantaffi: 12:34

That is possible that I love that idea. Because you're right in that moment. And that that me too moment was so intense in so many ways. I know that for me, and a lot of other folks, so many survivors is like, it's a lot, right. It was also a lot because it was everywhere. The trauma was everywhere. People were sharing stories everywhere. I know, I had a lot of clients who also were like, This is a lot because it's everywhere. And so I'm constantly exposed and constantly rethinking also about the trauma. And then your race seems to also almost have resettled into more fascism, right? More fascism, more white supremacy, more, you know, promotion of violence to stopping violence, like through police brutality, like the building of cops CD and all of that. And so, yes, I don't know, I do want to shift into talking about now. But I wonder what you've noticed in that moment, you know, that kind of rise and fall? And do you feel in some ways, what we saw was also pushed back. Right. Okay. Now you've had this moment. We're done. Now, things are back to normal, right?

Unknown: 13:50

Absolutely. And I think, you know, one of the things that I've been thinking about lately is how the response from SIS men was sort of ranged from guilty to defensive to rageful. Yes. And so these online cultures of grievance, we're building and building. And, you know, I don't talk about this explicitly in my book, but I think it's possible that it built even toward the January 6 coup attempt, you know, because a lot of what these paramilitary groups want is they want women to return to the home, they want to return to the traditional 99% of the time, white families, like they want a return to sort of women focused on on having children and having babies and taking care of their every need. And I think that there was a simultaneous sort of escalation of these cultures of rage. At the same time that we see a really powerful movement of people, you know, not just this women, like many people, as you said, sharing their stories coming forward, you know, but I'm wondering also, if people felt like they were hurt. You know, like, I think that's one of the issues. There's did few people feel heard and then where did that go from there? Like, did it just sort of get repressed on the larger scale again, you know what I mean? And the guilty the men who are guilty about it, like there's a wonderful book by Jane Ward called the tragedy of heterosexuality where she tracks how, you know, it was a rebranding right For masculinity, it changed from sort of the art of seduction to the art of personal transformation. And it was sort of like now like, I still have people sending me articles about like men's groups are trying to like, you know, express their emotions together like in a, in a sort of secluded woodsy environment. And it's sort of like, you know, that was part of the men's movement of the 70s as well, every time it sort of goes back to not a sort of deconstruction, but a reclamation, of masculinity,

Alex Iantaffi: 16:12

you know, Reclamation, that's often so inappropriate in so many ways, because it's often says why men also appropriating kind of cultural traditions, like sweat lodges in the 70s and 80s, you know, or like, talking sticks or like connecting with, like, animal spirits. And it's really like, what sometimes when I look at some of this information, I'm like, okay, as a therapist, yay, people are connecting with one another in themselves. But this is so toxic and problematic, and so many that are just like,

Unknown: 16:53

No, yeah, particularly the sweat lodge idea. And someone just sent me an article like a few weeks ago about another men's group that engages in these similar kinds of things, you know, and the whiteness aspect, like I said, Yeah, it's predominantly white men. And I think, regardless of the intentions, like I think that anytime a group of sis men get together, it's usually not good. Like, in large numbers,

Alex Iantaffi: 17:23

absolutely.

Unknown: 17:25

Eternity right there.

Alex Iantaffi: 17:27

That is a fraternity right there. And it's, like, so problematic, and how men can also bolster each other to justify violence, right? Or to justify investment or to justify just that. Yes, then normative masculinity that is so hard for them to let go off? Because why let go of power? Right, when you can rebrand out? Yeah,

Unknown: 17:55

and right. And the culture sort of supports that in all these ways. And politics supports it. I mean, I think that, you know, the sense of loss that my students felt after the overturn, of Roe vs. Wade, like, you know, they called me with such grief, because I think that they felt this sense of failure, you know, that, like I said, only a few years prior, I think there was a moment of like, we're going to, we're going to, we're going to address this finally, like, we're going to address the issue of sexual domination and sexual assault, like, we're going to change things, you know, and there were flaws, many, many flaws within it, as there are flaws within every social movement, every feminist movement. And I, I take, I take that, and I understand that. But I do think that around the topic, like I said, with this class, it was like, people were really wanting to have intense discourse about it across all these different investments in masculinity, all these different kinds of investments and masculinity. And I don't know, I haven't taught that class in a while. And I don't know if if there would still be that same fervor around it. And I think that's because there is so much loss post row and now with this just insane assault on trans people, trans and non binary people, like, you know, so we have BLM, and, you know, it's just, I think, I think we're all there's we're all feeling, you know, not the royal we, but I think we're like there's a sense of just collective grief right now, and not knowing what comes next, is what I'm sensing.

Alex Iantaffi: 19:36

Absolutely. Which makes sense, because it's this kind of pooling, you know, one on one, and we have this kind of rise of fascism again. And at the same time, we also have this tension pulling towards justice, right? Whether it's abolitionism, whether it is you know, reproductive rights, whether it is body autonomy rights for everyone, including trans folks, we're really seeing this kind of moment of tension and uncertainty. And, and I think there is a lot of grief, a lot of fear and, and often out of fear. There's also extreme reactions, which I think we're seeing in the world right now. And in the middle of all of this, there's also popular culture that keeps making things right. So let's go there. Let's talk about the Barbie movie because I think in a way, I was really pleasantly surprised, you know, and I have to say, as somebody who has a more queer masculinity Who really enjoyed dressing my Barbies and doing musical theater? I would have definitely been Oh, me too, right. I was like, I was growing up and I really wanted a Barbie Kamkar more than anything when I was like six or seven years old, right and like little plasticky one. And so I was both excited and fearing the Barbie movie because at the same time then when I became a parent, I was very anti Barbie, right? Because at that point, I was like, I was a feminist and very queer. And I was like, Barbie is not a realistic representation of womanhood. I remember you know, when my kid was no actually young adult and no, as I tell the stories, you know, we're in the middle of the coop doing grocery shopping and she had this Barbie that are of course there were uncle's gave her a whole set of Barbie Disney princesses, just to see my face on her birthday. You know, and I was saying anything about Barbie. And she goes, I know, I know, this is not what real women looks like that it's my doll doll. And it's okay. And I was like, Yes, honey, it is okay. It is also just a doll, a doll that you can play with. But it's more than that. Right? And so the Barbie movie that came out and it was so different than I think many people expected. What did you think about it? Definitely.

Unknown: 21:55

I mean, I felt very seen like that. And I also really love Barbie. What's what's funny is that my parents wouldn't get me any of the dream house or that was a car, the spies have to go to my friend's house. And she had an ad, where she had all of it laid out. It was just, and I used to make my Barbies like houses out of shoe boxes. And I would color them and stuff like that, because my parents didn't want to, they would they would allow a bar I only had one can, which is kind of funny. I always ask people like, how many cans did you have, though? I just had the one and he was just sort of, I don't know, drove drove people around.

Alex Iantaffi: 22:36

Like the chauffeur. Any cans. Right? What I think about it was all barbus. So

Unknown: 22:42

I just had one and he didn't get much attention, which is funny. Because that's kind of you know, because Greta Gerwig is so interested in talking about girlhood. I mean, we have lady Burj such a fantastic film. But I think that the there's so many things to talk about with the movie, but like Gloria's relationship, like Gloria, the woman, who you know, is the one having the sad feelings, and she has to go repair the space time continuum by going like Barbie has to go back to, you know, to help Gloria to heal and help the relationship with her daughter to he'll like, you know, Gloria has a line where she's like, you know, if it's this hard, you know, for you as a doll, like just representing a woman. Like, what does that say about what it's really like to be a woman? I'm not quoting the line. Exactly. And I think that, you know, we can talk about how Barbie has been, like, you know, potentially destructive for little girls, but I think at the same time, or, or, you know, gay men also have a total thing for Barbie and like a lot of Barbie but is it? Is it embracing the ideal? Or is it embracing some kind of hi feminists. That is, maybe I love the trans critiques of Barbie that say, this is like a trans movie as well, the whole idea of it as being trans, but, you know, I think that with, you know, with the Barbie movie, like, there were just some moments like, we, we were speaking a little bit about this, like, you know, when they go into the real world, right, and Barbie is suddenly the art like the sexualized object where she wasn't in Barbie land. And the commentary that I think Greta is making there about what it was like to play with Barbies, you know, in your, in your childhood bedroom, you know, or in my friend's attic. And it was such an imaginative space of, like, Feminine Empowerment. Really, yeah. That I as a non binary person, like I don't like I'm very much seeing my gender in the most complex way possible. Right. So and that's part of what I talk about in the book, too, is not shutting off, like any part of myself, like, you know, and I think that's a very difficult space to be in, in some ways. So I very much think that the femininity aspect of the movie and really centering the feminine. You know, I can't think of another recent film that has done that, you know,

Alex Iantaffi: 25:23

exactly. And I think you know, thinking about also like, what femininity represents, and I'll cry, like the relationship with femininity can be you know, and I've been brought up you know, my All this was a girl that was asked to do her own journey around femininity, right? Because this what does it mean to love femininity to love pink and also to be incredibly smart and to love math, and to love science, you know, and almost to have this dilemma, you can be one or the other, right? You can be pretty in pink, or you can be smart, but not really in pink, right? But if you're pretty in pink and smart, then the world cannot tolerate that right? And in a way, a lot of our was like, femininity is okay to me. It's not the problem BB is not the problem. The patriarchy is the problem. I'm like, You're right. The doll is not the problem, the patriarch is the problem.

Unknown: 26:17

Right? And we really like thanks to queer theory, like we've really moved away from that feminist moment where it wasn't okay to wear like heels if you want to, or, you know, to have that highest stem aesthetic, because one of the things that I really push on in my book is it's not about aesthetic. Yes, this is about settler colonialism, white supremacy, and, you know, and violence against marginalized people like that. I think there's so much room to play with gender. And I think Barbie invites us into that, honestly, you know, and I think that, you know, the fact that the tween character, whose name I'm forgetting just now, like the fact that she has that speech also, you know, and she's so angry. But then she's able to heal that anger, like through Barbie is such a sort of cross identifying moment. Queer sense, you know,

Alex Iantaffi: 27:14

there's so many queer moments, I think that that actually, the Barbie movie is so queer, which is why the conservative media was so upset about it. I think at one point, there's even like the colors of the trans flag during I think is during the man I am number I need to watch it again to watch it. And I was like watching What is even happening right now. This is the gayest thing I've seen in a long time in a mainstream movie, actually. And so there's this moment that is just the movie is so trans is so queer, but it's also really a highlighting of just how messed up kind of white masculinity in America is, you know, in a way can. Can. It's really about this crisis of like, white men in America, right? In some ways, like,

Unknown: 28:03

well, I picked up on something that I had missed. I've watched it twice now. Probably, we'll watch it again later today. I'm inspired. But when Ken takes over Barbie land and goes and learns about patriarchy, and forces, and yeah, takes the books out of the lab out of the school library. And I mean, all of those moments are great, like, where he asked to be a doctor, but he has no credentials. And he's like, but I'm a man like that commentary without executive race, like, you're not doing patriarchy, then very well, if you can't just do whatever you want as a man and you need all these degrees. And he's like, Oh, no, we're doing it very well. We're just hiding it better. Yes. Like, it's just, it's perfect. Like, that was exactly what I was saying about the post metoo moment is that, you know, things just become folded back in instead of really radically restructured, it just sort of gets hauled back in. But there's a moment so when can and you know, I guess the cans, but I think really Ken is the ringleader, they're the the primary Canada's the Canon leader. waves a flag that is just remarkably similar to a January 6.

Alex Iantaffi: 29:22

Scene. Yes.

Unknown: 29:25

And the takeover is a violent one. And the takeover is we're going to turn everything into into a saloon basically, which I have a chapter on the western of my book. So I really appreciated that. Like, for me, like the Western has been like such a fun part of my book because there are new Westerns that have come out that have really revised the the genre. So I look at Westworld and godless as being like you know, redefining it around that me too moment to like godless came out in 2017, just like a couple of months after it was kind of anticipating and I feel but anyway, so the January 6 moment is in there, and I feel like there's a lot going on in the subconscious of the film, too. That was fun. And I laughed and I laugh with my students, but you're also really like hit at a deep level. With what our current moment is like, you know that we have claimed Barbie land.

Alex Iantaffi: 30:24

We have an odd reclaimed Barbie, and find the lodger in the movie too. I was surprised by how deeply hit me as somebody in my 50s was I've gone through I feel many gender iterations in five decades and and you know, there are so many moments in the movie. They're very, like, I would say, funny and gut wrenching at the same time. And, and I, you know, I really love when you said we haven't reclaimed Barbie land. And I know that there's been no substance, some commentary on social media. I didn't like the ending, it should be both Barbie and Ken are rolled together. And I was like, what? Why? No. And so I think it's also very interesting to see how people are reacting to it and going, well, then, you know, Barbie should be like hearing right? And now Barbie and cans, you know, the both Barbies and cans should be equal, right? This idea of like, equality, which doesn't really actually undermines the structure the foundations right. And so I'm wondering about how you felt about the kind of the reclaiming of Barbie land, from the, from the setup?

Unknown: 31:45

Yeah, I think that one of the things that I've stressed, like, in all of my work has been that fundamentally we talk about transphobia, we talk about homophobia, we talk about it's all

Alex Iantaffi: 31:58

misogyny, it is

Unknown: 32:00

at the root of it is misogyny. And, you know, I think that there's probably a feeling of fear, like, what if we let the feminine, you know, out of the box? Like, what if we let the feminine rule like I think there's a fear there not only for, you know, people who identifies who are assigned male, but also everyone, sort of like having this fear of like, we need this sort of patriarchal control to organize our lives. Like, it'll be chaos, like this sort of feeling. And that's, again, one of those feelings, as you talked about before this sort of seeps in and it's the air we breathe, that is anti feminine, right. So I personally really love the fact that Ken is looking kind of dejected, in his key enough, can off sweatshirt at the end. And you know, the thing about it, too, that I picked up on the second time is that Ken has no emotion in that scene. So did he really love Gharbi? Or was it just an accessory to his ego? Like, it's clear that it was an accessory to his ego and that the whole thing was was about that and in certain respects, like the last scene that they have, where Ken doesn't know who he is apart from Barbie, but it's really the ego identification. It's the fact that Barbie is this is this sort of accessory in his narcissism, a projection, you know what I mean? So, yeah, so I think that I, I was very happy with the fact that Ken was left behind in Barbie land to continue his job of beach indefinitely.

Alex Iantaffi: 33:42

I agree. I feel like I was like, no, why Ken is not ready to rule like Kanye has to go through his own process of like, unfolding undoing finding himself, you know, because this and that's what I love as well that you know, actually the Barbie movie highlights men are not okay. And that type of Love is not love. It's self centeredness. It is narcissism is self centeredness is that there is no space for Barbies well being, or Barbies happiness, right? It's about me, me, me. You're not paying attention to me. You're not giving me what I want. Right? And therefore because you're not giving me what I want now I take everything right. And that is not love that but and yet we see that play out in you know, reality TV in dating shows we see play out and like, you know, exactly that. That could be all other episodes. I'm pretty sure talking about

Unknown: 34:38

I love that genre.

Alex Iantaffi: 34:41

I've just finished watching the latest season of love is blind. And I'm like, says that

Unknown: 34:47

particular.

Alex Iantaffi: 34:50

Right? Totally. Maybe we'll have to do I think to have like, let's talk about gender in reality TV shows and what's happening there. But I was actually

Unknown: 35:01

the show's way back. I mean, I started with love connection. Yes. And before I even knew what a date was, because my parents let me watch whatever I wanted on TV. TV was my, my surrogate family, if you will, so I'm very into pop culture because I had that kind of close relationship with characters to where they became like, you know, I think there is a term for that, that that I'm forgetting but where you develop a relationship with people on television or in film

Alex Iantaffi: 35:33

like that. Our social type of relation parasocial,

Unknown: 35:36

that's the term. Yeah, yeah.

Alex Iantaffi: 35:38

Yeah. And, you know, I love popular culture as well. And I think that's one of the, you know, many reasons that I loved your book, because they you do kind of talk about popular culture as well. And just how kind of masculinity plays out, not just kind of the political stage or the, but also like the popular culture stage, so to speak, combat fragility, normative masculinity.

Unknown: 36:04

Yeah, and I think that, you know, the whole idea of like, the Hollywood movie, can be a real source of, you know, the term that I use in the book is unruly alliances, like bonding with people who are different from you. And one of the things I really loved about going to see the Barbie movie was that there, I was surrounded by such a diverse group of people. And again, it reminded me of those classes that I talked about where like, there are really a lot of people that are interested in this movie, but every once in a while, you would see like a dad with his young assigned female child on his phone, like not paying attention, and I kind of wanted to nudge him and be like, you know, you really, you really should be looking at this.

Alex Iantaffi: 36:48

Because there's gonna be some questions.

Unknown: 36:54

Right, exactly.

Alex Iantaffi: 36:56

Yeah. And this should be questions, right? Even with my youngest was a boy. And he, he came into my life when I was a little older, like seven years old. And just a couple of years ago, we had this conversation around masculinity, right? It was like, you know, well, I know that often is like this white man that do those things. And what does it mean that I am one? And I'm like, That's a great question to ask yourself, right. And we have this great conversation about the connection with like, you know, white supremacy and masculinity and all those things that it's not about, there is nothing, you know, it's not bad to be a boy. It's just you have to be aware of why, you know, and this discourses and I remember, he was so angry anyone, why are they not teaching me this in school? You know, that was his middle schooler reaction was, why are they not teaching me this in school? And I was like, You're right. Why are they not teaching you this at school? Please go ask your teachers. I will also ask your teachers why they're not teaching you this in school. Right. But it's this idea that often a lot of this discourse can is so easily relegated to academic journals, or academic books. I mean, I love your book. And also, it, it is a dense read, I think for the general public potentially, right, you know, not not to dance. But definitely there's a level of challenge. You know, right. It's kind of beyond I don't know, a middle schooler level as it should be. Yeah. So I love that, like, how do we bridge this divide, so to speak, the conversations are happening in like queers, nannies and masculinity studies. And, you know, and then there's the Barbie movie that I think in some ways, is bridging some of those conversations. How do we do this? How do we bring this conversation more into an educational context? In everyday context?

Unknown: 38:53

I mean, that's a great question like, considering, you know, back to, I think you said it was your, your son, right. Yeah, your son, like back to your son's story, like, I have those moments all the time lately, retroactively, where I think why didn't I learn this in school? And why didn't I learn school, and like the fact that right now, education is being attacked? You know, I just moved from Tennessee, you know, very red state to Illinois. And, you know, I got gender affirming care in Tennessee. And it was terrifying, because just as I was getting that gender for Medicare, you know, you have the senator of Tennessee coming out and saying that the clinic that I went to, is mutilating children. And then the whole thing just really broke open. And one of the things that I wanted to talk about also is that I loved, loved loved the graphic novel, gender queer by my co, Bobby. And so I taught that book in a trans studies class back in 2018. This is sort of addressing your question of like, what kinds of books and materials I think do bridge that gaps and how I would also like to do more popular writing once I get tenure. But to get tenure, so um, you know, so that graphic novel was something that I that I taught, and I was just literally floored and shocked that that book is now the most banned book in the country. And that it wasn't a politicized move for me to teach that book. 2018 and my students loved it and more than anything else, it really told mice Don't worry, you know, from a much different generational viewpoint, but still. And now like I, you know, now I'm in a blue state in a very interesting location in Southern Illinois that's becoming like a place for trans refugees who are clean red states, reproductive justice, like we're just surrounded in a lot of ways. And so. So for me, those kinds of graphic novels, like the popular culture that I talk about in the book, like, I talk about the poet performer, Andrea Gibson, nonbinary, poet performer, who, like, you know, I have moments in the book that I'm hoping people will grab on to who are not super high end academic, and I try to sort of balance that out. Because I think that there are so many things that can't should be should be, should be more widely available to people too. And the shutting down of that is intellectual abuse in my mind. And so, yeah, so yeah, I don't really know where

Alex Iantaffi: 41:50

that's okay. I mean, honestly, we can just go to this place of grief, even though not only like, I think that, you know, I remember when Donald Trump the first time, you know, was gonna said they were gonna run for election and everybody was like, oh, you know, it was almost like, it was a joke. And I was like, Oh, here we go. Like, this is just the next chapter in the rise of fascism, right? And people were like, You're exaggerating. It's because you're like you coming from Italy, and you see fascism everywhere. And I was like, and then you know, not shortly, not long after sorry. People are like, Oh, fascism. I'm like, yep. Some of I don't know, maybe I am ever vigilant. Because I was brought up, you know, teachers and grandparents that talked about, you know, having survived fascism. But where was I going with this? My ADHD brain will come around in a moment again. And if it doesn't, we'll just have to cut this bit. And that's okay. And if we don't carry on, get to see the process, but you know, for it, no, I

Unknown: 43:00

think fascism. You know, I do talk about this quite a bit in my book that, you know, American fascism has always been with us, the seeds of it, you know, and enslavement, the seeds of it, and genocide of American Indians, Native Americans, you know, internal, you know, the incarceration of black and brown folks predominantly, just accelerating, you know, in the latter part of the 20th century, like, all of that is fascist.

Alex Iantaffi: 43:31

Yes. Thank you that, oh, my brain was.

Unknown: 43:35

We're just seeing it now with the gloves off.

Alex Iantaffi: 43:39

Exactly. And I think that literally seen books banned, it's hard to deny it. Right. I was like, literally, that the parallels are all there, right? Going after trans folks. You know, pre World War Two Berlin, book banning, you know, I mean, really, it's not even subtext anymore. It's like, the text is all there in terms of just kind of incredible push towards like this anti intellectualism, the sphere of knowledge, the sphere of books, right? This veneer of critical race theory, you know, the sphere of gender ideology, right to use all those terms that are kind of so pervasive. And it and while I understand on one hand that it stems from fear and certainty living under late stage capitalism, it is also I think, scary and horrifying for a lot of minorities, for a lot of minoritized communities for lots of good reasons. And some wondering how you, you know, I know you bring that into the book, right? Like how we cannot talk about masculinity without talking about race. We cannot talk about masculinity without talking about racial capitalism, actually, specifically, right, and the political stage. And so yes, I'm wondering, like, if you want to say a little bit more about the connections that you make in the book.

Unknown: 45:09

Yeah. So one of the things that I really wanted to do was to make a book that celebrated resistance. I didn't want to make a book that was a dreary description of the present, although I do quite a bit of that. Like, what I really wanted to talk about was how, you know, you know the word of the The word sort of exuberant masculinity or joyful masculinity through a queer and trans lens comes into mind. But that these are all valid and wonderful and colorful and, you know, vibrant masculinities that are queer and trans that have something to show us about what masculinity really can be like, if we associate it with like phallic sexuality and, and power and assertion or, you know, whatever you associate it with, and that sort of, like, young dimension of things can be used, like productively towards social justice goals, towards giving us pleasure as well. So giving folks pleasure, and that's one of the things that I think is important, too, is sort of the pleasures of masculinity, just like the pleasures of femininity, can be available to all kinds of different people. So, like, I talk about Performance Art, and I talk about like, using sex toys and performance art, you know, as a way to sort of challenge like this, like, so called biological supremacy of, of assigned masculinity. You know, I bring in, you know, like I mentioned the Westerns already, but I also talk about unions like I talked about a book that people really have loved and loved and loved with it, which is, Leslie Feinberg stone which blues and I had the really special experience of talking with many Bruce Pratt, Feinberg, late, fine, late fuzzy Feinberg's partner who recently passed away. And I was so glad that I had that opportunity, because she just said, Leslie would have loved your read of this book. Because I approach it as about work. And I approach it from the perspective of, you know, the butches banding together, you know, to protect one another, you know, on the factory floors, for example. So I address sort of unions, and that's such a hot topic right now, of course, that we have all these strikes happening. But this is another thing that I feel like I missed, like anticipated, because at the time, I was like, oh, there was some Amazon stuff going on. And there's stuff going on with Chipotle. And you know, there were little things happening here and there. But it's massively exploded from where it was. I mean, it's not at a massive mass point. But I think it's just such a dramatic increase in union activity and people being pissed about capitalism, quite honestly.

Alex Iantaffi: 48:05

So many people are tired of like, you know, we're going, I would say, we're still going for a pandemic, even though everybody's pretending we're not right. We're still going through a pandemic, people are still dying, you know, where and people are like, Why is everybody so tired? So dysregulated, all our executive functioning is kind of gone to hell, in a handbasket, or whatever. Whatever the expression is, right? And people are like, so confusing. I'm like, is it confusing, though? Or is it like, we're also exhausted by late stage capitalism, and people no longer want to just, you know, use their body minds as commodities, just on the altar of capitalism, and to make more money for Jeff Bezos or whoever has way more money than God. Right. And one of the things I love about your book is that you it is that it's not just about, you know, I would say that trauma of normative masculinity, but it's also the potential expansiveness of, you know, relationality of care, right? And we're seeing that really emerging, like the idea of mutual aid, that Tomomi almost mainstream is talking about mainstream mutual aid to people who are not like Conor kissed or something that they understand the concept, right. And it's like, it's amazing to me, and so let's go there. Let's talk about Yeah, how, in some ways, the, the Madison the healing is probably in community and that relationality and mutual care.

Unknown: 49:41

Yeah, I mean, if you think about back to toxic masculinity, you know, it's about independence and ruggedness. And, you know, John Wayne, I know, this is an old icon that maybe a lot of listeners won't know who he is, but I still see his picture on like, yes, supermarket magazines and such like that, like, it's still has quite a cult following like, independence, autonomy. And also, you know, if I see an enemy, which is normally an American, Indian, or Native American person, I have the right to kill that person. Right? Same with other marginalized groups marginalized by race. And so, you know, I feel like, you know, that, that kind of toxic masculinity needs to be countered, you know, and again, it's it's not so much about aesthetics or style. It's much more about we need To start caring for one another, like, we need to get out of this crisis of empathy that we're in, you know, we need to on the daily like, on an individual level, but also when it comes to across identity groups, like, you know, the the Combahee River collective statement, the black feminist statement back in the 1970s was like, you know, I have to fight for my own oppression, but also, like, link up with other groups that are oppressed, because we're not going to be able to do this alone. Like, and that is, what has really come to the fore for me is we have, you know, the complete rollback, you might even say decimation of reproductive justice, reproductive rights, we have trans people suffering in ways that just breaks my heart daily, you know, and we still, you know, post BLM have, you know, just vicious forms of violence against, you know, black Indigenous and People of Color in the United States. So, I think that if we, it's, it's a tendency right now, I think, to kind of circle the wagons and sort of get with your people. And I understand that, and I value that, and I think that's important. But I think it's also looking at how all of these struggles are connected. And trying to be, you know, be of service to the other because it's the other relationship that we even talked about in the Barbie movement, it's like movie, it's like, you know, the using the other as an object, you know, from Ken's perspective as a way of ego formation. Like, he uses Barbie for, right, like, you know, the, the idea of increasing our capacity to be empathic to be empathetic toward one another is one of the goals of my book. And it's also seeing the ways in which queer and trans community just offer so much to the mainstream to like, you know, as I mentioned before, like, not wanting to see these kinds of masculinities, which includes, like I said, a wide range of folks, gay men, but just sis fans, I mean, lots of different trans women like trans women's masculinities, which I think is I'm hoping someone writes a paper on that, I think that would be really great. Probably, I will, but like, you know, like seeing it as relevant to the broader discussion of masculinity,

Alex Iantaffi: 53:05

you know? Yeah, yeah. And I love that, you know, I was brought up very much by a second wave feminist, but luckily, I also found black feminists very early on, right. And so this idea that really, our roots of our oppression are connected. You know, we all have skin in the game and we work for each other's liberation, which has definitely been one of the tenants of my life, not just my work, right. Our struggles are interwoven, our struggles are connected, we can't. Because we are interdependent. We're a part of the same ecosystem, right? And often when I talk about gender liberation, I often say this is not about doing away with gender or masculinity or femininity. This is about expansiveness. This is about like, actually a more expansive masculinity, more expansive femininity, more expansive, non binary newness or just, you know, agender Ness, or whatever we want to call it, right? It's more expansiveness rather than more constriction. And that's one of the things that I love about your book is that there is expensive and as there is like, breathing towards the future, through relationality, through care through empathy, which in a way, of course, is the antidote, because colonialism, you know, misogyny, they're all very constricting system, right? They're all very make things smaller, rather than more spacious, and more expansive and more free, at least in my mind had no sorry

Unknown: 54:39

about that. No, I love thinking about the idea of capitalism as a constructor, a constructor of our bodies, a constructor of our souls a constructor of our time to like a lot of the thing I went, one thing I think about recently is how capitalism structures our time, you know, so that we feel we're completely out of rhythm with the natural world. Exactly, no, we're very fixed in that way. Or let's just say that the culture encourages that almost as also as a badge of honor. Like, you know, like you were saying, people are resisting that in the workplace, but it's sort of like well, how much work can you handle then? That's your badge of honor. And I'm actually you know, my partner is not from the United States and a lot. It's it's extra here.

Alex Iantaffi: 55:30

She's really an extra many people I say, Oh, you take European amounts of time off. And I was like I should do. And I intend to keep doing that now that I have the privilege to work for myself and do that, because you all why would you want to work 50 weeks a year if you don't have to, right. I mean, obviously, a lot of people have to survive under not only capitalism, but also like in a country where there is no universal health care, where there's, you know, some states don't even have education, that's really up to par. Because that's not where the state is investing. So I understand why people work so hard. But yeah, always strikes me is that people use it as a badge of honor. And I think that that's take us back to the masculinity, right? The match on is that like, but you know, isn't it great that I have the flu and I'm working, I'm like, No, you're making everybody sick? And you shouldn't be arresting? It's really not a sign of strength to me, but okay.

Unknown: 56:34

Well, and that's, you know, it's it's such a parody of itself, in a lot of ways like that kind of white class privilege masculinity, just to add that in there as well. That's important. salutely. And, you know, I think that what the Barbie back to the Barbie just really clearly again, but like, I think what Barbie might encourage people to do is, you know, when they happen to be sitting with a white sis head, dude, who's playing the guitar at them for four hours. Maybe they buy, like, look at them. Look at that situation, say, wait a minute, this looks familiar. Because my students and I laughed so much again, at that scene because it hits home. It's no, I mean, it's home.

Alex Iantaffi: 57:21

Absolutely. Those stereotypes do not come from nowhere. I definitely had some very painful flashbacks to my teenage years, you know, during the movie going, you know, because I think that's maybe my early 20s, where there was still saying no direction. Yeah, yeah. I

Unknown: 57:42

mean, you bring up one, one point that I wanted to go back to as being raised by a second wave feminist I think you mentioned but like finding your way to women of color feminism and black feminist practice. And like, I think that one of the things that happened for me, like coming up, really, in the early third wave, was that there was still this sense that to be masculine was bad. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. So for me, that led to a lot of repression, and still a lot of confusion. And I think one of the things that I wanted to do with this book was to work through like, you know, my father was abusive, my brother was abusive, like, you know, I have this abuse history also. And it just happened on white. And so it's kind of like, well, what does it mean, to move toward white masculinity? Yeah. Is there something in here that can be dislodged from that meaning, like that set of meanings, and I think it's still something that I struggle with, because when I came out as non binary, a lot of my lesbian friends were not so happy with that. And I had to sort of demonstrate that I wasn't going over to the enemy side, you know. And I think that's where we need to separate like, you know, not being dominating in that sense by any means, but still having that playfulness, with all things masculine, like I can wear a tie, or I can, like, you know, I can play around with it. And I think I tried to make that distinction in the, in the book is that there's a difference between, like, playing with masculinity and using it, it's creative potential, right, if one wishes to do so, but anyone can use it. Right. But that style doesn't equal domination and style. Doesn't you know what I'm saying?

Alex Iantaffi: 59:28

Yeah, absolutely. Because also, when we demonize something right, in a way, second wave feminism kind of demonize masculinity in a lot of ways, like I really struggled with. I didn't understand my gender identity for a long time, because I was internalized misogyny. And so I've really tried to embrace femininity. I used to say, that felt like I was in drag, which I was comes out because I didn't know about my gender yet. Right? But I was, you know, and then you try to embrace femininity, but you can't embrace it too much. Also, if you're queer, because then that gives you a proximity to masculinity, right? I remember even as a bi person when I was still femme presenting, right, inherently suspicious, because of the femininity and then that bisexuality that gave me proximity, right to sis men, and it's that doesn't

Unknown: 1:00:18

have very many stories. We have very similar stories because I came out. Like I said, I came out as lesbian than non binary, but the piece I left out earlier, is that I then came out as bi plus or Pam, like either one of those terms really suits me And it was just a really interesting trajectory because I was looking for my masculinity sort of the whole time and, and like you said about being in drag, like, you know, when I look back at pictures of myself from those years, there's just it does feel very strange, you know? And then I was always trying to reach towards something that wasn't that didn't fit me or I was always like, Okay, this is how you do nails. Okay, what do I do again, like, and it's always just a little off and the prom dress was off. And, you know, I just didn't, again, generationally speaking. There, there were very limited options like one could be a butch but I was like, what I don't ride a motorcycle tools.

Alex Iantaffi: 1:01:27

That was good with tools. That's where and I'm like, too much of a princess. Too much of a gay masculinity, to really embrace Britishness. So it was complicated.

Unknown: 1:01:42

Right? And that's why like Britishness, I did a lot of work on Bush, in my early academic career, and I was, you know, finding all these ways to talk about Bush outside of that stereotype. I mean, for a lot of people, that is really an important part of their identity and my complete, I honor that completely. It just never fit me. And I think that's where finding queer theory and finding, like, you know, Eve Centrix whole idea of cross identification, like the idea that, you know, she is like a sis white woman identified more with gay masculinity was for me an opening that I so badly needed. And I also identify more with a with a gay queer masculinity and like, my, my neighbor, who's a gay man, and I always talk about, like, he wants my outfit ideas. And like, I love it, you know, and it's like, that's such the richness and the fluidity of queerness that, like, I just thrive on and I want other, I want everyone to have that ability, you know, and I want everyone to be able to, to play with these things, and to not also be in fear. But I have to tell you that when I had, you know, top surgery, I lost some lesbian friendships over it. And that was really, really difficult. Because again, it was at that high point, we're still in the high point. I mean, we just keep going higher, there's no, when we were at a new high point for the time period anyway, like, I felt really abandoned. And I think it sort of prevented me from moving in that direction for a while. Because I was worried in a certain way of losing my community of losing, losing people's love. I mean, that didn't, I lost a couple of friends. I mean, it wasn't like a mass. Sort of shunning. But it it I did, again, have to demonstrate that I wasn't going to be or meet people made assumptions. I was going to use he him pronouns, which was really interesting.

Alex Iantaffi: 1:03:42

Which, even if you chose to, like that wouldn't justify losing friendships, potentially, but I totally hear you because it's like when I started dating my one of my partners of now 20 For years, I lost most of my lesbian friends because they were see, right always aspect we knew it like right, and it's like, most of them, it was just like, peace out, right? Because I most it was still pretty much lesbian separatist world in some ways, right? And so that's that those are the fractures in the cracks. And I've met so many. I've also met so many folks who were like lesbian identified, and then fell in love with a man and married and totally moved out of queer community. You know, I was very stubborn and hang in there. And I was lucky because I also had a lot of queer men, male friends, which was great, because most of them were like, Oh, when I transitioned or like, Finally, this makes sense. Right? It's like, oh, you're kind of a queer dude. Like, this makes more sense. Oh,

Unknown: 1:04:46

my God. Oh, totally. Yeah, no, and there's no just to backtrack on that. No, there would be nothing wrong if I wanted to take up he him pronouns whatsoever. It's just more that when I said, I'm going to get top surgery, people would confront me and say, Are you going by he him pronouns now? And it was almost like a test. Yes. Like, are you gonna go by him now? Because now we need to know where you stand. It's not antiquated. These battles. They're very much happening in real time. For a lot of us, and, you know, I think that's where my concept to be honest with you of unruly alliances came from? Yeah. Because I had to reinvent reinvent Did myself many times and it's all come with its own community issues, you know what I mean? Like leaving behind the straight world was a harder for me because it led to family courts lead to discrimination, it led to all sorts of things, right that I don't want to go into too much detail about, but it led, it led to horrible places in that way. And then joining a lesbian community, you know, it's still, I still felt a little bit like, well, I don't know if this feels like me, you know. And then like coming out as non binary, having some trans friends also say like, I don't get non binary, like, it's just I wish that we could maybe soften all those edges, and just allow everyone to, to be who they are. And I know that maybe sounds like a naive thing to say, but I just really wish that there weren't these sort of hard lines sometimes. And that's not at all to generalize all queer community or all queer trans community, it's just more to say, like, there are these moments, right. And a lot of it revolves around masculinity. Or at least for me, it has, you know, absolutely.

Alex Iantaffi: 1:06:50

I love this idea of softening the edges, right? Because I often think about, well, where is that hard line? Right? And as somebody who's been a hardcore abolitionist of like, political borders, as well as the police, right? Where are those hard those hard lines to me feel so colonial and non relational? In every way, right? Because where does trans and insists begin? Where does non binary and but you know, it's almost like life isn't binary, which obviously, I love that. Yeah, I love that book. I'm one of the co authors.

Unknown: 1:07:23

No, I know, I love that. I love that. But I did have that book. Also.

Alex Iantaffi: 1:07:30

I didn't know. Yeah, it's like, I'm with you. Right? For me, I feel like my life work is like, how do we soften and blur those boundaries, so that all of us can just breathe a little fear be in deeper relationship to each other? Like, because we otherwise we can't write if there are those hard lines and hard walls between us? Absolutely.

Unknown: 1:07:51

Yeah. And I think the unruly Alliance concept like idea for me, which I think you get the spirit of, you know, it's like, in my previous university, like, you know, my best friend was, you know, much older than me, like she was, you know, about, we retired, she retired, and I left that university around the same time, but she was such an ally, for me, and like, you know, totally of different generations also identified as by plus, but like, it was a very unlikely pairing, you know, that we would find such such solace in each other where I didn't always find it in other spaces. And so I think, for me, I've had very unlikely friendships, alliances with people that have changed me. And I think if I weren't open to that, and I only wanted to be around people who looked like me, I would have really lost out on so much like I learned about masculinity, even through my 90 year old stepfather who just passed away recently, actually. And so he taught me a lot and sort of taught me that, you know, there is such a thing as a non abusive father to like, it is possible to change masculinity. And I think that's what you said earlier to about the fact that it doesn't work. It's an old feminist adage, like patriarchy doesn't work for anyone, right? It doesn't work for white sis, men, either. And some have realized that, and I think my class did that for some of these of these men as well. And they've really started to question you know, not their style, none of that, but like, starting to question how they relate to others. Because that is, that is the point. That is really it, like, how do I reach the other? And how do I empathize with another's experience? Because so much of what our society teaches us is, Who am I as an individual, here I am on my phone, how many likes do I have? Like, yes, how am I being perceived, and that social media is a double edged sword there because I think social media has done incredible things for queer and trans community, incredible things for folks to build solidarity. But of course, also there's the other side of it, which increases our narcissistic impulses for all of us. And that needs to be sort of dis identified with a resisted, you know, where we need to look at that critically as well and think like, you know, it's about how am I using that tool, not like shunning it? are getting rid of our phones because that's, that wouldn't be useful. That's my phone. I really love my phone. So it's like, you know,

Alex Iantaffi: 1:10:44

I would mess up my phone. And I don't know that I would miss emails, sometimes. I do miss the days before emails, but I have to say I love social media, there's so much easier to find community, right? It's like, you know, I didn't know any trans people that, that were out growing up, right? I'm sure there were some around me in Italy in the 70s. But I didn't know them. And so like social media is really giving, like such a playground to younger generations to find themselves to see themselves even if they're in an isolated rural area, that they don't have to feel like I'm the only kid who feels like this in the whole world, right? Because I can find somebody else who resonates with that experience. And, and I think that's beautiful. You know, like, I think that much as there is like this shadow side of social media, I think there's still so much goodness in the internet in terms of relationality. Yeah,

Unknown: 1:11:41

but definitely like, and I think like the ways that my students learn on social media and then come into my classes, and they have such they, they identify themselves with such precision, in a way I really envy because I think about like when I was around in the sixth grade when it was time to take off my like, Tomboy clothes. You know, I mean, again, it was still a really gay tomboy. Barbie was still there.

Alex Iantaffi: 1:12:13

I love that. I think that's a beautiful place to end on the gay, Tomboy this, I feel like I could have like 20 different conversations with you about all the things that we've been talking about. But I do want I want to be respectful of your time. And maybe we'll just have to have at least another episode on reality. And gender Oh, yeah. Let's get on the calendar for 2024. For it than anything else that you were hoping to touch on or talk about that I haven't really asked you about, always ask my guests at the end, like, is there anything that we have not talked about that you are hoping to convey or communicate to the listeners,

Unknown: 1:12:59

I just really want to reiterate a message of hope. You know, and really just leave space for how many people you know, we touched on grief, we touched on grieving, we touched on trauma, and just how many people are really in a state of suffering right now in the United States, because that's where we are right now. And just feeling isolated, like just to know that they're not alone. And that, you know, there is community out there and there are different ways of being masculine. And that, you know, that is that is available to us now. And we can seize on that. And we can, you know, live in the beautiful vibrancy of all the different masculinities that are possible. You know,

Alex Iantaffi: 1:13:42

I love that and that now, all I have in my mind is that man, I am seeing an Barbie with a beautiful vibrant masculinity is what a beautiful place to end on. And you also have a book out. So just a reminder for our listeners that your book masculinity in transition is out now. And they can order it from wherever they get books and other an electronic book for more, or an actual hard copy of the book. And it has a beautiful cover. If you want to flash it. I'll show it again. On YouTube. Again, it didn't cover.

Unknown: 1:14:19

I think they did a wonderful job.

Alex Iantaffi: 1:14:22

I really did. There's some particles, there's some blues, there's some oranges, classical imageries with some social media emerge jury, I love it. So please, get Allison's book. It's really brilliant. And it's a wonderful read. And I'm looking forward as well to your chapter on book banning, as well. And if people wanted to find out more about your work, where should they go on the internet?

Unknown: 1:14:49

Okay, awesome. Hammer k sorry, K Allison. Hammer KLLISON hammer.com is my website. And I post new stuff on there new publications. There's also more information about me as an artist, scholar of cultural critic, I do lots of other work and literary journals and literary magazines and things like that. So I post new things on there and you can learn a little bit more about me. They're

Alex Iantaffi: 1:15:18

wonderful. What thank you so much for this time today. I really appreciated our conversation, and I'm really looking forward to our next one already.

Unknown: 1:15:27

It's wonderful to get to know you, Alex, thank you so much for having me.

Alex Iantaffi: 1:15:32

Likewise, and Gender stories listeners. As always, thank you for supporting the show for listening, done acetate to reach out and let me know how you feel the season is going. I know I had a little bit of a pause in 2021. But it's wonderful to be back and to see that you're all still listening. And so let me know what you'd like to hear in 2024 as well for next season. And until next time, take care of yourself and embrace your beautiful masculinity, whatever that means to you.