The Glass Scientists: In conversation with S.H. Cotugno

S. H. COTUGNO (Sage) is a queer and mixed-race Victorian horror nerd born and raised in Los Angeles, California. They are a director, writer and storyboard artist in the animation industry and have previously worked on projects such as Gravity Falls, The Owl House and Star vs. the Forces of Evil. The Glass Scientists will be their first published graphic novel. You can see more of their work at SeeGoatRun.com or check out their linktree at: https://linktr.ee/arythusa

Transcript

Alex Iantaffi: 0:36

Hello and welcome to another episode of gender story. I know I'm always very excited, but I am extra fanboy excited today, because I got to interview Sage Cotugno and I'll tell you in a minute why I'm so excited about interviewing Sage. Sage is a queer mixed race Victorian horror nerd born and raised in Los Angeles, California. They're a director, writer and storyboard artist in the animation industry, and previously worked on projects such as Gravity Falls, The Owl House, and Star Versus the Forces of Evil. The Glass Scientists will be their first published graphic novel. And I will put a link to their link tree in the episode description. So you can go and order the book and see all of the other links to Sage, wonderful work. And sages work on owl house, which is one of the favorite animations, cartoons in our house. I've watched them all with my oldest with my daughter, and we're big fans, which is why I'm like extra fanboy excited. Thank you so much for making time for gender stories, Sage, welcome.

Sage: 1:44

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Alex Iantaffi: 1:48

Yeah. So you know, I'm excited about Owl House maybe we'll talk about it. But I really want to talk about your graphic novel. This is your first graphic novel. And so tell me about kind of what inspired you to write this novel, you know, to kind of move more from animation or graphic novel world if you like.

Sage: 2:09

Yeah, absolutely. So I guess I'll just give like a quick intro to the book itself actually finally got my author copies in the mail. So I can actually show this on screen. I think they came out really nice.

Alex Iantaffi: 2:19

If you're watching this on YouTube, the cover looks so good. Yes,

Sage: 2:22

thank you. It took so many iterations. I am not a natural, like cover artists. But I feel like I think you can be pretty cute. But anyway, so quick little elevator pitch to the story. The Glass Scientists it's a YA graphic novel. It is a reimagining of classic characters from Gothic science fiction. And it specifically follows the story of a young Dr. Henry Jekyll as he tries to create a safe haven for mad scientists in a treacherous alternate Victorian London filled with bubbling potions and misunderstood monsters. So you know, if you enjoy the fantasy horror elements of Owl House, I think it'd be a really fun fit for you. It's got some comedy, it's got some, you know, spooky adventures, has a lot of like internal turmoil, it has some queer romance. So it's got several things.

Alex Iantaffi: 3:13

So exciting. And let's talk about queer romance a little bit, because it's hard to kind of get that queer romance, maybe for an animation world, although I think how allows us such a great job of that. So what was it like for you to represent queer romance in your graphic novel?

Sage: 3:30

It was a real journey. Because, you know, I think, you know, we have evolved so much in terms of my main industry, which is animation is in terms of like, what is possible for queer romance in particular, over the time that I've been in the industry, I've been in the industry for about 10 years now. And when we first started, before I entered, it was such a non, it was not even something that was even talked about, you know, this was so much earlier than, you know, Disney's 25th first gay character, you know, to the point that, like, I have a very clear memory of, you know, I had a, one of the kind of origins of the story was, you know, role playing out these characters, you know, in a roleplay setting, just like, you know, on on chat with my friends. And one of my friends was like, Oh, I would like to have my own animated show one day, but it's really important to me that my main character gets to be gay. And like, I, I kind of laughed at them at the time. And I was like, That's ridiculous. That's never going to happen. They will never allow that. Which sounds sounds so weird. Today, right? We've come so far, but at the time, it truly felt like this will never happen in kids animation. Yeah. And I think I started kind of changed my vibes on that one. This is before I came out. So I came out as bi when I was about 22. So 20.. 2012, I want to say and so of course, you know, that's going to change my my feelings on the subject quite a bit. But I think it first started changed when I was on Gravity Falls, which is my first show, which was a wonderful show to work on. Loved it. I learned so much. When I was a few months in, I had so it had so happened that I got put on a lot of kind of romance based episodes. And I actually don't traditionally love romance, I think for some reason, especially straight romance. And so I was a little bit just like hmmm This is just not very fun for me. And kind of on a whim, I was like, Man, why can't we have a career where mines I can't explain why, but they'll just be so much more interesting. And that was the first time I really ran up against just how difficult it could actually be to push that forward. You know, this is a little bit right before kind of the early queer kisses. I'm not totally familiar like the the great history of like, like late stage, queer confirmed characters like your Korra's, your Marceline, Steven Universe, it like is one that really kind of blew open the doors on that. Because I feel like before, then they're just there just wasn't. And I was kind of right before that moment. And at the time, we got a lot of resistance to that. And I will avoid going into too much detail because like, I still want to have relationships with the studios. But it was really, really hard. And the representation we were trying to get through was so much smaller, it was like a blink and you miss it. And I think there's a tendency nowadays, to come at it from a perspective of like, Oh, why would you go for these blink and you miss the things in less be just because we're trying to cut it out for China or so that conservatives won't get mad. Whereas I think for me, when you're first fighting for those things itty bitty moments can represent months and months of work, you know. And I think we were chatting a little bit beforehand, about, you know, like, how different generations have different expectations for representation. And I think in a way, it's actually it's really great that younger folks are demanding more and they should, you know, but coming from an older perspective, I, you know, I am, in a way still surprised to get any gay Disney characters, you know, much less the, I mean, obviously, we want the more meaty, more substantial characters, but like, it really wasn't a thing back in the day. All this is just say that, like, when I first started The Glass Scientists, I wasn't sure if I was like, brave enough to really write the queer romance that ended up writing into it, you know? And I think, honestly, I had to be sort of convinced I had all these like, little schemes in my head, like, half of me was like, I want to write the super gay thing. And the other half was like, No, we cannot. It is impossible. I don't know what accent that was supposed to be. But like, it's like, it just it felt just like, I can't even exactly describe, it just felt so taboo to do that I'd write these like weird half steps of like, Oh, these characters are going to sleep together. But then there'll be so drunk that they don't remember, they never talked about it again. And I think my first my first girlfriend was kind of like, that's kind of a cop out, you'll maybe you should do more than that. And they kind of challenged me in that space. All this to say that, you know, it's over time, I've kind of pushed more and more and more in the realm of having more explicit queer romance. I think the thing that finally pushed me over the edge like no, I really want to commit to this. I really want to tell the story. Was I stumbled across Mackenzie Lee's book, A Gentleman's Guide to Vice and Virtue.

Alex Iantaffi: 9:00

Yes, yeah.

Sage: 9:01

Are you familiar?

Alex Iantaffi: 9:04

I have heard of it. I haven't read it.

Sage: 9:05

But it is. It's really good. It's delightful. It's, first of all, it's just a really well written story. It's like really solid, like, satisfying makes me mad that I didn't write it. But it is also just like, a very beautifully realized, queer story that takes place in the 18th century. And the main character is just like, flamingly bisexual, and but like, so like, you can tell that it was written by a by author, you know, it just like, it just just, it's so beautiful and so perfect. And that was just kind of like my religion. Like, no, I want to write this. I have this deep desire I've seen now I've seen it done. Well. Now I want to do it myself. You know?

Alex Iantaffi: 9:51

And, yeah, I really hope sorry, I didn't mean

Sage: 9:52

I was guys. I'm good.

Alex Iantaffi: 9:57

I just, you know, it's getting so excited as we were talking because I'm like, Yes, I think if I'm doing my math right from you mentioning 2012 I was like, I think I got like 20 years on you as somebody who's over 50. And yeah, I mean, I've been out by for nearly a quarter of a century, which feels like oh, you're longer than that actually. in them. Yeah. And, you know, I didn't think I was gonna see kind of so much queerness on these new plants in my lifetime, right. You know, my oldest was like, Oh, if it's not queer, I don't even want to watch it on Netflix on this day, and I'm like, oh, That is, you know, my kids live in a totally different world than I live. Right. It's just like the access. And I have a lot of compassion and understanding for younger folks who are like, that's not enough, you know, when there's like limbs that you mentioned, that for me, I'm like, Oh, my God a glimpse, I didn't think, yeah. In my lifetime, you know, there was nothing when I first came out, like in my 20s, you know, years ago, there was just so little representation. You know, I remember staying up late at night to watch and have, you know, lesbian movies. So that was show like, a midnight or something, you know, on TV. But yes, I never thought that I would see things like, you know, the new Shira, or Owl House, or where there is actually what I consider pretty open queer representation. You know, for kids. So it is pretty exciting. And I'm so glad that you have the plans, and you're like, I'm gonna go for this queer romance. And when we were talking earlier, you also said something about how your gender journey kind of unfolded as you were writing The Glass Scientist, and I'm curious whether that feels connected to this, and it'll be an inner dialogue you were having with yourself around the queer romance or, yeah, tell me more about your gender journey as you were writing The Glass Scientist.

Sage: 11:55

Yeah, so I feel like when I was growing up, I didn't know any trans people whatsoever. My parents didn't really know any queer people of any way, shape, or form. And it just was not even remotely in the zeitgeist at the time. And again, like if I can, like shouting out again, like previous problematic beliefs, I had, I think, the first time I heard about non binary identity, I was kind of like, that's stupid. You know, like, oh, like, if you could just like, choose your gender, like, everybody would change their gender, which is like, yes. I mean, in retrospect, it's kind of like, Hmm, maybe explore a little bit in that space. And I think, over time, you know, again, it became more of a topic. I think, for me, I'm the sort of person where I sort of need to understand things intellectually before I can feel them properly, probably, you know, possible neuro divergence thing. I really relate to have you read? Um, Alison Bechdel's Fun Home. Oh, yes.

Alex Iantaffi: 12:51

Yeah, I've read everything Alison Bechdel has ever written.

Sage: 12:55

I love her. But like, I love how like she discovered she was gay from like, reading about it in a book, kind of like, Yes, that's it. Yeah, like, I can't process something just by feeling and I needed to like, see it reflected back. And I think really like working animation, working in comics. A lot of there's a good chunk of work that is kind of busy work was like coloring stuff inking stuff, you need to be listening to something in order to not go absolutely insane from just boredom. And so like I listened to you wander down YouTube rabbit holes, and you discover contra points, you discover philosophy to discover a lot of folks like trans folks speaking about these issues and like, suddenly being like, Oh, I'm very interested in the subject, like, Oh, this feels like really, really interesting to me. I wonder why. And you kind of enter that kind of like really good ally space, where like, you just know way too much about a certain subject.

Alex Iantaffi: 13:59

Oh yes as an ally to a trans person, that's familiar.

Sage: 14:04

Yeah. And I think from there, what was sort of an egg crack moment for me, like, I like to say that I didn't so much discover that I was trans as much as I discovered that cis people existed. Because I started to have these conversations, you know, with like, my roommate, where I'd be kind of like, I'd seen like a meme on like, trans Reddit, which I was, of course, checking on, just casually for fun. I there was like, this meme of like, if you could just press a button and change your gender, would you? Which I really liked, I liked that. It's separating out like the stress of social transition. And medical is all the barriers and the ugh, the the things that wouldn't normally would make anyone hesitate. And just be like, if magic existed, would you do it? You know, and I was just like, well, that's silly, because everyone would do that. Right? Yeah.

Alex Iantaffi: 15:01

I would take advantage of that.

Sage: 15:03

Yeah. But then my roommate was kind of like, I wouldn't like I like being a woman. And I was like, really? Like what's the point? And then I also remember going out shopping with some folks who I thought was like, it was very queer, a little bit gender non conforming people. And I had the same conversation. They were also going to like, No, I like being a woman. Like that's a big thing for me. And me being like what really? You know, and that kind of made me aware of like, Oh, if they feel like that, and I feel like this, then maybe that's a sign of something. And I feel like that was kind of my crack moment. And as all this was happening, you know, I was writing the glass scientists. And I sort of stumbled into having a trans character in the main cast. Just out of curiosity, I feel like we were relatively early again, like 2014 ish. Discussions about representation and wanting a very diverse cast. were things I didn't grow up with, but we're becoming a conversation. And so I was like, oh, trans people exist, we should have a trans character in the main cast. You know, let's, let's do it. And so I kind of made my main character, one of my main characters trans. Before I realized that I was trans. But by the time that I ended up writing his backstory, I had come out as trans and so like, there was an interesting journey where like, I suddenly actually had the tools to write this thing, which would have been like, oh, writing this totally different identity be like, Oh, no, I guess this is my story, actually. You know. So that's one thing like one I had a Canon trans character, but I think what was equally important to me was that like, since I was like a little kid, I think since I discovered like anime. Arguably since I'd watched The Lion King, Scar is a very important character. For me this very like flamboyant Disney Villains. I've always been really drawn to instantly no characters like scar like Jafar, they were animated by Anders Andre De Zhi thinks I pronounce his name, who is who else who was gay himself. So like, that's kind of where that sensibility comes from. Obviously, there's all that kind of history in Hollywood, like it is a gay coded villain. And I think it's really interesting. Like, there's obviously problematic aspects of the gay coded villain, but like, also, there can be like, a weird empowerment from it. Like, I didn't see characters acting like that, unless they were the gay coded villains. So like, I still love these characters. You know?

Alex Iantaffi: 17:45

That's what we had for a long time.

Sage: 17:47

Yeah, yeah. And like, I didn't have the words for it back then. And I think, again, I grew up in kind of a casually homophobic society. I think if I'd seen like an actually gay character, I would have been like, oh, I don't like them. They're gay. I'm not gay. So I don't like them. But like, the mannerisms, without, without that label being put onto it, I could just be naturally drawn to them. You know?

Alex Iantaffi: 18:13

That makes sense. Was it? Wasn't that a layer of meaning put on them?

Unknown: 18:17

Yeah, and I think I know, also, I feel like growing up, when there was representation of queer people on screen, it was often of super narrow idea. And I think, especially for me, what really was difficult was like, how bi women in particular, were portrayed. And I think, especially in the mid 2000s, I want to say, you know, yeah, yeah. Was like, either, you know, not either, but I think usually, it was just like, they are, you know, eye candy for men to look at is like, Oh, two girls making out but then they're gonna make out with me too, because they're bi. And so like, I think I've really struggled in my life of like, seeing, like sexuality as something you can own as opposed to something that allows people to own you, you know, that it's like, oh, you express sexuality. And now you are like, something that someone else can enjoy, you know, like, you're no longer your own. And so for me, the set over sexualization of bisexual women in particular, really discouraged me from coming out growing up. Yeah. All this to say that, like, I had a hard time connecting with, you know, real queer characters, the few that were there, so I tended to connect more with like a vibe. And, you know, whether that's a Disney villain vibe, or just kind of like, I think Prince genders always tend to describe it as like this very specific type of masculinity. Right? And I was always drawn to that, but I feel like you didn't see a ton of it, or it was a source, it was like the butt of a joke. You know, like, oh, you know, like, I have such a very strong memory of, again, going to animation 2012 queer representation gender, Nakamura so was not a subject. I have such a strong memory of going on. John Kay's blog, John K is a creator of the show Ren and Stimpy. He is not a good guy. I'm very not no predator, very bad person. But like, I didn't know that at the time. He just seemed like, Oh, he's a successful animation person. He He's very opinionated. He must be right about things. And he had this blog post just ranting about Disney princesses and how like on masculine they were and how like, they were just like gross and embarrassing, and just like not real men. So even though I was drawn to this type of masculinity, I was kind of like, maybe I shouldn't be. Maybe this is just like a teen girl fantasy. And like, we all know how much interest of teen girls are stigmatized. So I was drawn to it, but I felt like, Oh, this isn't very serious. This isn't real. This is like a fantasy. But you know, like, when I was writing glassline, just like, hey, I can write whatever I want. So I'm gonna write, you know, this beautiful princely man as my main character. Not intentionally being like, Oh, this is my gender, just like I am drawn to this, I want to write this guy. I am just compelled to write him. And what I discovered, you know, when I put them out into the world, was like, oh, it's not just me. And my really weird specific interests, like there are people who also are drawn to this character. And specifically, like, a good amount of trans masculine people were drawn to this character. And I think, seeing them able to express their gender and to express like, hey, like, I really liked this character, and I want to present like them, like him, was like, very inspiring to me. And I realized that you that was something you could actually do, you know, and I hadn't really realized that before. And so I feel like that was a really big opening up moment for me.

Alex Iantaffi: 22:08

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, oh, my God, when you're talking about Disney Princess, I'm like, yes. That's what I would call like, a queer masculinity, right? There's Yes. of queer masculinity, which definitely, as a queer trans math person, I was like, oh, yeah, that's probably why I was into this, like Disney Princess Princess. You know? I was always like, yeah, the princesses are fine. That's an interesting lifestyle. You know, there's absolutely many levels to what you were saying about sexuality as something that for other people to consume rather than for ourselves. That's so true with my sexuality. And I was represented, right, and which is problematic, no matter the gender, a few different stereotypes are hurtful in different ways. Yeah, I feel like the conversation could go into so many different directions, here. So I'm gonna take a minute to think with, well, where, where do we want to go from here? Really, because, you know, like, gosh, really happy to hear more about your journey with gender as you were writing the glass scientists? Or maybe just how things evolved since then, if you want to Yeah, where would you like to go next?

Unknown: 23:23

Oh, gosh, I mean, like, there's, there's so many things, I do want to call it something I wanted to bring up earlier, just really fast. I just want to shout out, you know, the crew of Owl House. And also, you know, shows like Shira as well, that is really, it does make a huge difference when you have a creator who is queer themselves who is you know, when you're representing minority, and you are from that minority, because just realistically, you know, you're going to come at it from much more authentic place, number one, to you're going to be much more motivated to actually fight for that thing, because it is always going to be a fight whenever you're pushing out of the mainstream anything, realistically. And I think three I feel like with both Shira and owl house, even before the queer romance, you know, officially comes in, I feel like there's like queer vibes that are really, really present, right?

Alex Iantaffi: 24:11

Absolutely. Yeah.

Sage: 24:13

And I feel like you can kind of you feel as an audience member kind of, you know, held, you know, and like, I trust the show, you know, like, the vibes are there. And it just feels like, they have been living in this world. They know these sensibilities really well.

Alex Iantaffi: 24:30

I agree. I remember, you know, when we started watching our stuff, I was like, I can't believe I'm watching this show that feels so weird, you know, and then it became like, when there was a queer romance, I was like, wow, this is happening just like that. Just suddenly, you know, I couldn't believe it. I actually went back and I was like, Yep, no, that that really happened. You know? It was like, Yeah, of course, like, you know, it was like I could see coming same with shear at the end. And I was like, I was like, they're not gonna let them cast. They're not gonna let them do this. Right. That kind of goes back to this idea that this couldn't possibly happen on a mainstream show.

Sage: 25:10

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that just shows like how, you know, again, like, even we are, you know, obviously, we live in the present day, but like you carry with you your experience, and that sets your expectations so much, you know, I felt so much the same when I watched our flag man's death, you know, and it just like, even if I'm seeing the GIF sets, I'm just gonna like, that's not real. There's no way that's actually really gonna happen, like, my brain just is still set for lower expectations in a way.

Alex Iantaffi: 25:39

Yeah. And I love what you said about even as a creator yourself, you kind of have to I would use the word tight within yourself almost to just allow yourself to be that expansive and you know, as somebody I mean, I write nonfiction mostly, but even in the nonfiction is like, Okay, how far can I take it? You know, like, can I talk about colonialism and gender? Can I talk about, you know, Mac John Barker, and I just, I just started writing how to understand your relationships. And I think this is our most radical mainstream book yet, you know, bringing in anti capitalist sensibilities and Disability Justice, you know, and, and all those concepts in the mainstream, which I think, you know, even 10 years ago, and definitely 20 years ago, would have been really hard to get published by mainstream and one of the lives, you know, for example, in publishing, I think, you know, that, I don't know, if you still feel, ya know, you're younger than me by sounds like you're also feeling that kind of friction inside of like, can I let myself just be fully, like, be queer on the page, so to speak?

Sage: 26:49

Absolutely. I think like, for me, anyway, my sense of gender and sexuality is always a little bit tied to, for me, because I'm also mixed race. And so like, for me, that was kind of like, I've always been like, at these kind of split identities very much like in the, in the intersection of everything, which is also another reason why I think I was very drawn to the sort of Jekyll and Hyde in particular, where like, he's not just, you know, a normal guy who was like, possessed by a demon, or like a guy fighting an evil thing over there. It's very internal. And it is about a person who like in his very nature is split, and comes up with this ridiculous solution of like, I'm just going to take a potion and just split my two halves in half sensible. Yeah, you know, yeah, I mean, it just like, I'm like, Yeah, I get that, I get that I do the same thing. But for me, like, because I grew up with this experience of feeling very much like, not quite belonging to either side, you know, where I was always very aware of the fact that I was half Japanese specifically. And I was very aware of the places where I didn't naturally belong, I had to kind of make an effort more to belong. Like when I was, I think, five or six. My aunt, who lives in Germany, lived in Germany, came to visit for the first time. And apparently the story goes that, like, I looked up at my mom and I looked at my sister, and I said, two Mommies, and in my defense, there's two ways you can read this. One is what I think was, the more reasonable were sort of like, Hey, she's literally your sister. Yeah, she looks a lot like you. But I think my mom was kind of like, Oh, my God, my child can't tell the difference between Japanese people. So she, she signed me up to basically an all Japanese American Girl Scout troop with kind of the explicit purpose of like, please get to know more Asian people, which I think was was great. You know, like, I think I'm really glad that I got to have that experience. At the same time, I feel like growing up, I was aware of the fact that this was sort of like, an artificial thing that had to be done to me, not done to me, but like that had to be, I had to be kind of inserted into that I was not naturally in this community. And I think that sense that feeling of like, oh, this is part of my identity, but I don't really feel like I belong fully and this identity really came with me. When it came out as bisexual. I was really really fortunate that my first my first girlfriend was like, they were just very articulate like, what's the word like? They were very smart, very I feel like emotionally intelligent as well. Almost like a philosophy majors like a smart aleck academic person, you know, dating this like cartoon person. And they were very like, on it with like bisexual discourse, in a way that I feel like wasn't even really super being I wasn't I certainly was not aware of in 2013. I had certainly absorbed all this like bi phobic stuff growing up. But they were really great at kind of unpacking stuff, because I remember I want to step first dates. I felt so intimidated to be dating a lesbian. I was so intimidated. And I was just like, Oh, I'm sorry that I haven't been through the struggle like you have I'm sorry that I haven't suffered in the same way. I know that I'm just you know, I'm just a half gay. And they're like, no, no, like, let's honor your experience. You know, bisexual people go through a very specific struggle. And like within like and here's all the statistics, and here's all the by phobic stuff. And let's unpack all of that. And they were really, really great at that. Which I think is fantastic. Because like I've, you know, been on dates with people afterwards, who did not have that attitude towards bisexual folks.

Alex Iantaffi: 30:45

Oh, yeah, I've had lesbians in the before the 2000s, I can assure you, it was not good enough. As a bisexual femme at the time, it was much more like, you're suspicious, you're gonna leave me for a man. You're like, you're a lesbian? Yeah, all the shit that you can imagine. So I'm so glad that you have. Yeah, yeah, I

Sage: 31:10

was so fortunate, you know, um, unfortunately, was a long distance relationship. So like, it was not it was not fated to be, but they were they were great. I couldn't really ask for a better first, if anything, I feel kind of bad. Like, man, they did a lot of education. For me, which was very nice of them. But like, yeah, like, I think, if I had been hit, like a full force of by phobia coming out, I'm not sure I would have made it. Because again, I was already primed to feel this, like really intense inferiority complex about my sexuality, because of how I already felt about my race. Yeah. Yeah. And then it's still something I'm definitely struggling with, I think in the gender space, of being in that non binary category. And, and not kind of fitting in to what I certainly perceive as kind of like, the traditional trans narrative that like the mainstream media is aware of, yeah. It's a little silly, but like, I always, I think I'm still kind of like searching for like more people who are like me more people who like have a more wobbly journey. Because like, I was reading Elliot pages memoir recently, which was great. But it was like, there was that moment when he was like, oh, yeah, I knew since I was four years old, I was like, oh, okay, that's, that's not me. doesn't like me. And of course, obviously, great. That's his gender journey. But there's always gonna be a moment in my head. I'm just kind of like, shooting my fake. Can I make this up? Oh, no, you know?

Alex Iantaffi: 32:43

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. Because when we leave in them more liminal spaces, you know? Yeah. as well. I'm also by I'm non binary, I'm, you know, conditionally white. Because the moment that I open my mouth, people are like, Well, where are you from? Where are you really from? You know, it's not the same experience that even you know, my kids have a different experience. Right, but like, even the nanango accent, just like, puts a question mark, right. A lot of ways, and while also benefiting from my privilege, of course, but it's that liminal space, right, where you're like, I don't fully belong here. And I'm adopted and ultimately belong there. And I think that there is, you know, so much cisgender is so much. Just so much rigidity in the world, right, if you're in that kind of, I love what you said, like the wobbly journey, right? Yeah. Basically, like, Yes, I felt like this sense of kind of embodied resonance. I guess I felt like my whole life has been a wobbly journey. And at least not where I've been more conversations, like non binary wasn't even a thing when I guess I'm genderqueer gender doesn't quite even claim that right? Am I enough? Right?

Sage: 34:00

Exactly. Yeah.

Alex Iantaffi: 34:03

My anything enough, right can be so, so stressful. And well, and I wonder how all of that also kind of impacts your, your journey or your voice as a creator. Right. So the five moments that you have asked yourself for the know, oh, do I know enough about this experience? Right about this? Or do I don't know if you've ever had those moments?

Sage: 34:29

Oh, constantly. Yeah. I think you know, going back to my explicitly trans character whose name is Jasper, by the way, he's a werewolf. He's cute. He's good. With him. It's funny, because I think looking back, I was like, I was freaking out about this way too much. But like I was pretty antsy about writing that backstory. And like there are some elements are just like, I just need to write this in a way that will reflect me because like, I just, I felt weird writing a very traditional trans story, because I felt because it's so separate from what I experienced, that what ended up writing for him and this is going to be in Book Two is that he came to gender in that kind of like thinking about it way that I did, where for him, it was just kind of like, I had this moment in the story where, you know, he grew up on a farm. And you know, we had a lot of animals growing up and he wanted to name this one. pet pig Jasper because he liked the name. And then his brothers were like, That's a girl pig. You can't name that girl pick a boy name when he was just like what Why do names have gender? Why can you just name it how you want? And that kind of just slowly unraveled into like, Well, if the name can be whatever, you know, why can't Why does hair have to be gender? Why does this have to be gender? Why does that have to be gendered? And he just kind of stumbled into it to this kind of like logic problem in a way. So that's the part that felt the most authentic to me. But I still felt kind of like, well, he's a little bit more masculine than I am. What if I'm doing this wrong? So I actually brought in a sensitivity reader to to double check, Jasper story. And I think, currently, I probably wouldn't, wouldn't feel the need to do that. But like, at the time, it was only a couple of years ago, I still felt like, Oh, I gotta check this with like, a real trans person, you know?

Alex Iantaffi: 36:21

Yeah, I know that feeling. And it can be any so interesting, though, because at the same time, kind of what we read can be so influential, right? So now you're gonna have this graphic novel, that's probably going to mean a lot to some young people. Because, yeah, I'm also a person who has made sense of my own identity through studying and reading, you know, I used to, like, women's studies had this fascination with gender for forever. You know, I was not trans. At the time, it was actually like, Oh, it must be internalized misogyny. Oh, my gosh, you know, my gender. And so there was a lot of unpacking of that. And, oh, I was going somewhere. And then I lost myself. But oh, yes, this idea that we can find ourselves in, in books and graphic novels. You mentioned anime before. I think that was one of the last things growing up in Italy in the 70s and 80s. Anime and Manga were huge. I was obsessed. Animate, I think in English, the title that translated the Rose of Versailles. Oh, yes. You know, like, her dad wanted a boy. And so she was raised as a boy. And it was like my favorites, you know, every episode. In hindsight, I have no language, right? It was about my gender. But I was so drawn to this character, right. And it was probably also on non binary now looking back. But I think that animation, especially animation, I think, in some ways, because you can do something that is so different than just kind of real live action, right? With animation, I think you can build, like what you were saying that queerness without necessarily the name or the label on it. And I think that it made that that there's a lot of queer sensibility and a lot of anime in my experience. Yeah,

Sage: 38:06

I mean, I think like, there's also like me, I feel like that's shot up like 20 Different like topics for me. So I do like, I mean, I am fascinated by anime and gender, because Japan is such like, a rigidly binary gender space in so many ways. You know, and often, like, kind of behind, you know, even like the US in a lot of spaces when it comes to queer Rob, but it also has this like strong tradition of fictional queerness, which I think is really interesting. And like, then that's a whole dissertation. But I think what's really cool about drawn media, is that you are not limited by the realities of flesh. You know, I think now again, having spent even more time on like trans read, I'm, like, so aware of like, here's what you can change with hormones, here's what you can change with surgeries, here's this, here's that, here's all these different options, here are the realistic limitations. And so, and obviously, like all of those cost money, and so not accessible to a lot of people, and this and then all these things can come into into play. Whereas like, you can just draw any old thing you want, you know,

Alex Iantaffi: 39:11

There's a freedom in that I would imagine, I'm not a drawer, but I'm imagining that there's a lot of freedom in being able to do that.

Sage: 39:20

Yeah. What's funny is that like, I've always resisted drawing self portraits. And again, probably tied to a gender thing is that it just never, it's always felt weird to me, I would draw like one and then I'd stop. So I've always drawn my little characters instead. But I think just the other week, I was like, Oh, if I want to imagine like, where I want to go next, gender wise, I could just draw myself, and what would that look like? And then I did, and it was like, I felt like a cast a magic spell. I was like, Oh, my God, am I allowed to dry? Like looking back and forth? Like, am I allowed to draw this? Lets you know, and it was like, it felt like very powerful in that moment, to be literally able, just like, I can just draw what I want to look like in the future. You know, that's a really, I mean, that's a very special skill that I'm very happy that I have.

Alex Iantaffi: 40:12

Yeah, that is so wonderful. It does sound like a style in some way. Right? Because you're imagining and manifesting, and that is so beautiful. I feel like I could have this conversation forever. But I want to be respectful of your time. Because I know you have another women after this. So how maybe we'll have to have a part two to kind of pick up you know, gender and Victorian For there's so many things we could have talked about, you know, gender and culture. That's such a big topic. Yeah, so many feelings about that in many ways. But for now, I want to like I said, be respectful of your time. So is there anything that we haven't talked about that you really were hoping that we would talk about that you want? listeners to know about your about your work?

Sage: 40:57

Again, I completely agree with you. I feel like this could go on for hours. I feel like there's so much to talk about. But I feel like it was like the really important stuff. I feel like we did hit, you know, wanted to highlight the queerness in my story wanted to highlight my queer journey. So yeah, I'm

Alex Iantaffi: 41:12

good. That's wonderful. Thank you. And if people want to get hold of the glass scientist, or find out more about your work, I know I'm going to have the link tree in Episode description. But is there anything that people could do to support your work, like, could pre order your book and they write a review of your wonderful graphic novel? What do you need from your readers to support you? Yes, so

Sage: 41:37

the the best thing you can do, if you're watching, listen, watching or listening to this, on the day that drops October 2, the best thing you can do is pre order, the last scientist is going to be the last day that you can do this. And if you do preorder, I can give you a little thank you gift, this little goodies that I have made myself. So that is the best way that you can support me today. And if you're listening to this anytime after date, the best thing you can do is of course, you can always buy the book, but never hurts. Because Google Glass scientists, you can pick it up at your local bookstore or online all the places. But leaving a review on Amazon or Goodreads or wherever you are leaving reviews really, really helps. And helps No, I think it helps the algorithm find me. I'm not really sure. But that sounds about right. So all those things are great. You can also read the glass scientist because it is it did begin its life as a webcomic. So you can also continue to read it online at www dot the glass scientists.com.

Alex Iantaffi: 42:36

Wonderful, thank you so much well, so please support kind of queer representation. And more than The Glass Scientists read that. Get the book, read the webcomic support sages work and thank you, Sage for being with us today. I really appreciated this conversation. Like I said, I could have gone on and on about so many different topics. So let's make some time maybe to have some of those conversations next year. If you're up for it.

Sage: 43:07

I would love that. Let's absolutely do that. And again, thank you so much for having me. This has been so much fun. Again wish I could stay longer but I have to get back to work. So

Alex Iantaffi: 43:17

I know that feeling definitely a labor of love and and on that note, dear listeners and for some of you now watchers now that the Gender Stories on YouTube as well as everyone that's listening platform. Thank you for listening. Thank you for watching. Thank you for supporting this work of exploring gender with so many wonderful people and so many different topics. Until next time