The Power of Story and Representation with D'Lo

 D’Lo is a queer/transgender Tamil-Sri Lankan-American actor/writer/comic. He has toured his solo shows internationally, his last show “To T, or not To T?” running last year at the Kirk Douglas Theater in LA. Acting credits include: LOOKING, TRANSPARENT, SENSE 8, and MR.ROBOT, CONNECTING, Quantum Leap and Billy Eichner movie BROS. He is a Senior Civic Media Fellow through USC's Annenberg Innovation Lab funded via the MacArthur Foundation. His work has been published and/or written about in academic journals, literary anthologies, and print/online journalism sources, such as LA Times, The Guardian, NBC, CNN and The Advocate. D'Lo (he/they) dlocokid.com
imdb.me/dlocokid
instagram.com/dlocokid 

Transcript

Alex Iantaffi: 0:35

Welcome to another episode of Gender Stories. I know I always say I'm excited but I am genuinely so excited to be interviewing D'Lo today for you all gender stories listeners and watchers now for those of you who are also watching on YouTube. D’Lo is a queer/transgender Tamil-Sri Lankan-American actor/writer/comic. He has toured his solo shows internationally, his last show“To T, or not To T?” running last year at the Kirk Douglas Theater in LA. Acting credits include: LOOKING, TRANSPARENT, SENSE 8, and MR.ROBOT, CONNECTING, Quantum Leap and Billy Eichner movie BROS. He is a Senior Civic Media Fellow through USC's Annenberg Innovation Lab funded via the MacArthur Foundation. His work has been published and/or written about in academic journals, literary anthologies, and print/online journalism sources, such as LA Times, The Guardian, NBC, CNN and The Advocate.

D'Lo: 1:41

Thank you so much. Oh, thank you for having me. I always love talking to people. And I don't know, I felt like we had too much in common. You know what I'm talking about. So, you know, I was like, this is just stuff that I felt like, this is someone I could trust with my heart.

Alex Iantaffi: 2:04

Oh, my God, that means so much to me. I felt so good to when we because we met when did this in Engendering Love thing, panel thing. And yeah, I felt that connection to I feel so good to hear that. And then I saw you post something on Instagram about bidets I was like, I feel that so strongly, too. And that's how we connected. I was like, let's do this. Let's get to know each other a little better. And let's also record a podcast episode. So thank you so much.

D'Lo: 2:30

Yes, absolutely.

Alex Iantaffi: 2:33

Well, so let's talk about actually the power of language and story, right, because that's in a way, that's how we met was through sharing some of our experiences and stories. And I think that for many folks in minoritized communities, including trans community, queer communities, there is a real power to sharing our stories and sharing our voices in this way. So tell me a little bit more about like, why is it so important for you to share your stories in all this beautiful, different media as you do?

D'Lo: 3:04

Yeah, I think that, for me, it started with me, my career started, or my artistic press practice started in regards to the writing because I was playing music before. But in regards to writing, I was a poet, I still am a poet. And so, but the poetry when I was younger, was really about larger issues like the state of our world, the state in our society, the police state, war as a as sort of like, the, you know, not just about the Sri Lankan Civil War, but just our civil wars here on this land. And you know, everything about queer issues, to AIDs to everything, you know. And when I came out to my parents, like two months before I graduated college, I moved to New York. And there were things that were happening to me, like on a heart level that I just didn't have an outlet for. And I was sitting there still doing the poems and the poetry, but I felt like I wanted to share more, not to the audience, but I agree. So I think I started by saying that it was very strange for me, especially like looking back to think that I was connecting with audiences on these bigger issues like having a point of connection. When in actuality, when I started writing about what was deeply personal and with specificity, that I started having such a deep connection with my audiences, because as one of my mentors and teachers says Cherie Moraga, she says that, you know, that the more details and specificity you provide in your story, the more universal it becomes. And it's such an interesting thing, right? Like, you and I probably have less in common outside of our queerness and queerness can be a blanket because we all know that there's so many different ways of being queer. And yet we will be able to connect based off of the hours, the specificities, in our stories, those little hidden gems that are there are where there's deeper points of connection. So So that's, that's when I realized I Mmm, the power of storytelling from a very personal space and that the personal is political. And, and vice versa. And that and that you could storytell in a way that changes people, like literally rocks them on such a deep foundational level, that they are changed the minute that they leave that space with you, you know. So I am interested in that kind of power and empowering people to, to be desirous of that kind of power as well, you know, you know, we oftentimes talk about how, you know, like, representation matters, like, it does. It does, it does, it does. And I'm not saying anything to like, naysay against that, you know, but I think that our freedom is most important, our personal freedom is most important. And we can get free as a collective, you know, so I think that story is the binding agent, and that I know that that's like the, it's the thing that I use to create collective healing.

Alex Iantaffi: 6:56

I love that I'm getting chills, actually, as you're talking about this, because, as you were saying that I was thinking, Yeah, this common threads of our humanity, right, that we can weave together for the power of story, you know, I'm thinking about"Everything Everywhere, All at Once" did I remember the title correctly, it was such an amazing movie, right? Totally far from my experience as a southern Italian person who's moved first to the UK and then to Italy, right. But there was so many things that I felt deeply connected to, and then my oldest kid was like, I need to watch this movie with you, Mom, you know, and we're watching this movie, and we're holding hands, and we're crying, you know, and again, that no shared identities, in terms of an Asian American experience, but they were threads of connection around like, you know, intergenerational trauma, and parenting, and just just Yes, there were so many friends that we could still connect to. And it is transformative when we can connect across, you know, across differences, but also kind of things that bring us together as human. I don't know, it's such a weird complex dance. For me always.

D'Lo: 8:13

magical thing, it is a very magical thing. Because, you know, you sometimes you go in and you don't expect to connect. That's the thing we don't expect to connect because we're fear full of the opposite of what that is right? Like we're fearful for the disconnection for the violence for this that and other. And that's why I think it's so magical, because a single point can do either or, and yet, more often than not, if you're dealing with somebody who's not like, maybe is, like, even if you're dealing with somebody who's like, a little bit of an asshole, there still might be an opening to which that person might be able to grab on to your, your, your story, and vice versa, you know, so?

Alex Iantaffi: 9:10

Absolutely. I mean, I know that I found connection unexpectedly with people where if our we've got nothing in common. And then I've actually found this connection with people, I thought, Oh, we must have so much in common. Right? You can, I don't know for me, you can never tell. And I love what you said that you it's not just about your story. You also help people tell their stories, right? You've done workshops to really help people learn how to tell their story or bring the story out. So tell me about what drew you to that to kind of wanting to work with people and helping them tell their own stories as well.

D'Lo: 9:46

Yeah, I think that I kind of got pulled into doing workshops when I was touring the college university circuit. And based off of whatever I was learning, I would sort of incorporate some things and then add my own sort of twist to things. But in the more like, more specific types of workshops that I do. The main reason why I wanted to do those is because it was there were situations in which I was dealing with not dealing with but hearing a lot of stories around people's mental health decline. Seeing and rates of death by suicide. So these were reasons for me to be like, let me just do these and see what happens, you know. And, you know, sometimes with, like, this is just an example. But, you know, one of the organizations I worked with Satrang is the South Asian queer organization that has been organizing in Los Angeles for 25 years, you know, and they would have these parties, and everybody would come out to them. And it would be like, a big Bollywood or something like that something very Indian, South Asian, or more north, northern Indian, right, or, you know, what I'm talking about. So, I would come there as a, as a first generation American, right, and not really know how to connect with these folks. Right? And I was like, oh, you know, I would just come to support but I didn't really love the music, I didn't get it, there wasn't my part of my culture, right. And then I, I kept going to these just as a supporter, just as somebody who would, you know, knew that there were like, brown folks, queer folks party. And at these parties, I would see like people wiling out, like, it was almost like, that amount of freedom to just be queer and brown and open about it, and just let, letting go of everything was almost too much freedom, it was almost like we have people like either getting really drunk or like, you know, different things like that. And so I was like, There's something clearly missing here, if we're not able to provide another sort of space outside of the party space. And I brought the idea of the workshop to the organizers, and everybody's like, Oh, no, I don't know. And then, you know, like, and I said, look at, you don't have to pay me for this sort of school route. Let me just do it. And sure enough, it was like such a beautiful, deep, profound experience. And I made all of the workshop participants, invite people they normally would not invite to, to this public reading, right. So we had people coming in that room that were probably haters, or people who were coworkers and didn't know that their friend was queer, or whatever. And they were all mobbed up, we had over 100 people in this joint. And story by story we shared and it changed, like, what was happening in that room changed people. Like, they were getting their freedom, you know, and then, and then that word of it got around them, or whatever. And it was actually like people who usually went to the parties who actually came to the reading that were like, Oh, my God, I didn't realize I needed to be here. And then they would sign up for the workshop, the next school room, you know. And I think that it's a, it's a sad thing. And I brought this up on that panel that we were on, but you cannot quantify the impact of community based artists and these and these types of workshop settings. And so you really aren't ever going to get the full scope of how profound these experiences are, like its arts making. Its writing. You it's a process is a decolonial process that is occurring in the like, it's happening strategically, because I'm the facilitator, but it's also just happening on a on a deep level, just by the converging of people, you know. And so, sorry, I don't mean to talk so long, but I'm saying that let's do this kind of thing is what like, it makes me so sad that we can't use metrics to prove that these things are life changing, truly transformative experiences, you know, and not just for me, you know, because recently I haven't really been teaching the courses. I have a lot of mentees. But but, you know, to do this where it's easier for me to walk with a mentee. I don't, I'm not getting paid. They might buy me lunch or a coffee, do it I'm saying and it's more sustainable for me than it is to actually do the workshops with no money. Yeah, you know, absolutely. So. So yeah, that's, that's my two cents. I met a

Alex Iantaffi: 15:42

beautiful as a beautiful two cents, you know, and it's just that what you were talking, I was thinking about how much healing that brings, right? I mean, I'm a therapist in terms of what I do with my day job. And one thing that keeps, you know, hitting me is just how finally, kind of Western traditional psychotherapy is catching up to healing traditions, right? Because I really feel like this therapists were part of, we're just the latest manifestation of healers, you know, under this capitalist, white supremacist world, but really, people need healing, you know, and actually, what's happening now is that we're coming back full circle, in some ways in there is this interest in somatic and art and bringing the body you know, and I was like, of course, you know, this is, you know, I didn't grow up in a therapy culture where I got my healing was through community worship, that of course, it got problematic because right, it was an exclusionary worship for me as a trans person, but moving together, seeing you with people dancing with people. And then when I came out as queer, where I got my healing was dancing at the club, was also problematic, because people were also trying to find their healing through alcohol and substance use. But I found a lot of my healing through connecting through dancing and moving and or queer choir, you know, those are the ways we feed our soul. Right? poetry readings, all of that. So am I, as you were talking with like, yes, yes, yes. Sorry, that was a long comment on your two cents. But there you go. We touch just a little bit like you mentioned, representation, right? We started with the power of story, but there's also this power of representation. And you have been, you can have a number of like shows and as well as doing your own solo work. Why do you think it's important for you as a, you know, Tamil Sri Lankan American trans queer actor to be out there and be visible? And for more and more diverse representation, because in a way, I feel like 20 years ago, you know, with trans people, it was like the Highlander syndrome, that can only be one, right. And now we're finally in a place where maybe there can be like, a few of us in a show, right? Lately, somebody was like, we need the Alison Bechdel Test. But for trans people, you know, are there several trans people? Do they have names? Are they talking to each other? And they're not just to like, die or be like a plot point? You know what I mean? So yeah, tell me a little bit about your thoughts about representation. From your point of view, as somebody who is an actor, and who said, they're representing in some ways,

D'Lo: 18:36

yeah, I, I feel that the more stories we have out there, the better. And in this conversation around representation, it's also like, I'm not happy with just any kind of representation, like I needed to be specifically like, like, mindfully done, right. And I think that Hollywood, bless Hollywood's heart might not get it right, the majority of the time. And yet, we fight to have more truer representation. And I'm seeing all of this stuff as sort of like a preface to the fact that like, I've been in this game and I was, you know, right when the beginning of that trans wave started about 10 years ago. Yep. was doing a lot around representation and whatnot. And I have had the hardest time in this industry landing an agent or representation. I've had some here and there but the only work that I felt like I could put out there and and do it on my own name and who is my is my own personal work right like everything else that was bigger than that was scripted would take a lot more money and it has I've definitely doled out enough of my own money to to do things. I I know that there is a lane to do that. But there's very few people who are on that path even now. And the amount of power they wield is even less and typically is in the hands of a lot of white, queer people, right? And so and I'm not mad at that, because I have a lot of friends, acquaintances, colleagues that are all, you know, that are white and trends that are white and queer. And they're they're making headway, you know, and I'm so grateful for that. But I think that when when I like, I think recently, because I've been in a lot of conversations around representation. I don't mind that there are people who are not trans or queer, who are collaborating with me on stories that uplift marginalized voices. I don't, they don't need to be only queer, they don't need to be only. I mean, in my heart, I want to contest this is me. This is just me. But I only want to be creating with other bipoc. Folks, you know what I'm saying? Like, but I'm not opposed to collaborations that are that that, that need a special eye that may be I'm not getting within my own circles. Sorry, I'm gonna go off tangent. On tangent, do they say that? Who knows?

Alex Iantaffi: 22:01

I don't know, you can go on or off wherever you want.

D'Lo: 22:04

But I think that when we when I've been having these conversations about representation, I what I really want to say is represent representation matters. And it also is not the only thing that matters. It matters if it's done in a way that is really like able to penetrate and change things or empower people. And it's not just about sticking one like you said as the plot line or whatever. We joked on one panel that we're we want to see shows where there's more than one trans, trans queer person. And then I thought, Well, why don't we take all the characters that are just the one trans person on the show and then create a show around their individual characters? But But where I want to land with this question is, again, back to personal freedom? Yes, I think that we have to pick and choose our battles, and some battles are done on an industry level. And some battles are done on a community based level and some battles are taking place from within our hearts. And I think that the, the, if we, if everybody's like, I need to see me in that medium. And then I'm not going to be otherwise I won't see myself in the way that I want to be seeing myself, then that's the biggest problem. Yeah, is that what we ingest? Doesn't necessarily have to come from that. Like, I know, for me, what I ingested came from stage and from the page, you know, and so in that way, I think that representation all across the board matter, but it's not just who we're seeing on the screen. I know that that's so important, but it's not just that, you know,

Alex Iantaffi: 23:59

oh, absolutely cannot be the be all and end all and like you said also representation as like, what kind of representation right? Is it intentional? Is it mindful? Is it transformative? You know, you talked about the transformative power of story, right? Is a stereotypical or is it transformative? Is it you know, and also who's writing those characters? Right? It's not just the actors, but who's in the writing room? Yes. I mean, those for writing rooms, everybody's on strike at the moment, but still on strike, right. I've lost track of news lately. But, you know, it's so complex, you know? Yeah, because otherwise you get visibility, and being targeted for that visibility without that change, which I think in some way we're seeing in trans community right now, right, there was that tipping point, you know, Laverne Cox on the cover of Time, all of those beautiful things, you know, I'm in my 50s, I've definitely seen trans and queer people, you know, be much more visible in ways that I never expected, potentially, in my lifetime. And I've also seen the backlash on that, you know, and I saw like, then who suffers the most right? They're gonna be the folks in our community who have the least access and the least privilege and so it becomes, I know, it's complicated. As many things are in life.

D'Lo: 25:23

I'm so happy that there is so much more representation and I'm like, but what are we doing for our people on a deep level, you know, exactly how is this how is this helping If we're already on the margins, but then there's even margins within that margin, you know?

Alex Iantaffi: 25:41

And we have to be at the center.

D'Lo: 25:43

Yeah. Okay to be in the center. And so that's why I'm always like personal freedom, personal freedom, because it's personal freedom to me before I used to hear that. And I'd be like, well, how does that attach to the rest of the world? And then I realized, oh, no, this attaches to the rest of the world in such a profound way. Because, again, it's when we are healing in communities, when we're creating in community, it's when we're like, then we become the healthiest. Right? And then, and then the ripple effect is grant, you know?

Alex Iantaffi: 26:14

Absolutely. Oh, I love that. I feel like, I feel like there's 500 tangents in my head. And that's okay. That often happens. But talking about those kind of personal story, that personal freedom, I do want to touch on your latest, I think it's your latest solo show, right? To tea or not to tea. And yeah, what is that about? You know, I'm not in California, so I didn't get to see it. But it was awesome. So yeah, tell us about that show why you wrote it, what it means to you, all of that good stuff.

D'Lo: 26:48

Yeah. To turn it was a solo show second of a trilogy around. You know, what, my reflections on taking tea, the choices that I made to take tea or or the decision process behind that, but also like, you know, what does beautiful masculinity look like? We're, we always throw around toxic masculinity, but it's kind of like, okay, like, that's just patriarchy. Like, that's in the answer. Anybody can be a toxic masculine person. Yeah. But, but what is beautiful masculinity mean? kind of flips it for the people who proudly ID as masculine and, or a blend or whatever, but some kind of masculinity and say, okay, like, what is this? What does this look like for me? So, I kind of talked about, like, you know, growing up and my, the sort of understanding of masculinity that I had, via TV and my culture and the culture that I also my artistic community. And then I go into, you know, my journey into, not into feminism, but as a feminist, because I feel like a lot of people, you know, I remember when I first said this, but I feel like one of my first feminist teachers was Queen Latifah. And this was as a young kid in the 80s, listening to her lyrics as an MC, you know, and so, fast forward to me, learning from these very incredible scholars, slash artists, you know, these these feminist scholars that wrote the bridge, call my back, and, you know, other other beautiful books and poet poetry books. But when I talked to these very same people in these communities, and as I was a part of these women's circles, I was I was like, right before millennial. And so what happens is that I started getting this messaging, like, you don't want to be a man, like, why would you want to do that, like men are what's wrong with this world? And etc, etc. So I drank enough of that, to not really think that I had a decision to you know, like that I had decision making power, because I was like, Why do I want to do this? Am I turning my back on women and feminism, whatever. And, and this and where I land is that, you know, I have to do what it is, I'm the only person who is living in this reality with this with my past histories, which you know, twirling around in my brain and in my heart, and if this is what I want to just kind of see if this could be something for me, then I'm going to try that. And throw it back at these feminists who probably didn't mean to be turfy but accidentally were and say, Isn't feminist men what you've always wished for? You know? And just leave it at that, like I get the optics, I get that masculine women and people who are seen as masculine women are, are like examples of a fuck you, you know, but, but it's like at what cost? Our queer peoples we have such like, already, we're like, oh, yeah, we're challenging gender norms. But we still have a very binary way of looking at gender. And it's just the same way that we do a lot of things and so meaning that it's just in the ether, we smell it and like it's an yes they're affecting us. And so I, my work recently has been around the intersections of mental health and masculinity and queerness, of course, but you know, what? What kind of invisible isolation happens as you transition? The flip side of visibility, and how are we like, are we just and again, being subsumed into this community of people. And then our needs are not ever brought to light like, like a lot of birch or stud, or masculine of center, or AG, or whoever you want to call it. Our needs weren't put up at the very top, because we were being good lovers of femmes and women, you know. And so all of our shit just gets tucked under someplace else, and we have to try and figure that out. And yet, we're not because again, patriarchy, we're not talking to each other, etc, etc. So, this is the work that I'm trying to do right now I have this project as sort of like, a next step to this, it's not a solo based piece, but it's called cry with you, or the uncles project in which myself, and I've already prototyped at once, just with me, but what I dream of is having a whole bunch of men of color, from the whole Gender Spectrum, to offer to hold space for other people as a public installation, or a busking project. And so, that piece is, you know, the question that's framing this piece is, why can men be seen as nurturers or as safe spaces? And so kind of throwing back the onus of our our own people to take care of one another, right? Because and not have the the burden of caretaking to be on the shoulders of femmes and women all the time.

Alex Iantaffi: 32:43

So beautiful and, and also it just kind of I have so many feelings about listening to you talking about that. Because, you know, having been brought up as a second wave feminist, you know, I worked so hard like, oh, is this my, you know, internalized misogyny, you know, I wanted to really celebrate and embrace my femininity coming out was really hard. It took me into my, you know, early 30s To finally be like, I'm definitely gender queer, you know, on the masculine end of the spectrum, but also on a very effeminate masculinity. You know, I, the way I explained it to my mom was having a hard time understanding what was happening, honestly, with my sexuality and gender as like, you know, Mom, if I'd been born as this boy, I would be one of those cis boys who were like, into music. I was in Barbies, and like, super queer and couldn't hide their quickness. That's my is still masculinity. But it's also there as a when I think when masculine people are nurturing, caring, is seen as almost stripping away the masculinity, right? Because there's so much, you know, what we call over cabling and somatic therapy, of like, femininity with nurturance, right? So if a masculine person is nurturing, then that almost strips away, their masculinity is so messed up. You know, and it's so traumatic, so

D'Lo: 34:16

basic, it's so sick.

Alex Iantaffi: 34:19

Yes. Like,

D'Lo: 34:21

what are we doing here?

Alex Iantaffi: 34:23

Right. I love that. This Mother's Day, you know, I got this sweet tax from my oldest kid was admin, the stories I share about her with their consent was almost 20. You know, and it was like, Happy Mother's Day to my two dads, right? Because, like, we always talk about being a mom is like a job and actually, you know, like, the medical parent with assessment man is much more of a man than I ever was, you know, I'm much more like the fun, rough and tumble but also like provider type of person, you know, in my family, so much more like traditionally masculine role, despite like my feminine masculinity, whereas my sis male partner is definitely the mom, right? It's really hard for him to be away from home and family for the first time yet to be separated from the baby was really hard. You know, it was a stay at home parent for a few years. But you know, and on one hand, people are like, Oh, that is so beautiful. And on the other hand, I'm like, but that often is not what is wanted. I also see how people move around that the confusion and the challenge And like you said, you know, wasn't a point of adding feminist men, but then when you get feminist men, often there's so much suspicion, there's so much pushback, there's so much like, you're not man enough, whatever that means, right? I don't know. I see. So, yes. And then of my new layer or the other complexity of racialization it's not it's never just about gender, right, never just about their gender. It's also about when racialized whether we're disabled or now whether, you know, what the class statuses, all that kind of stuff, it just gets so messy. And yes. Like you said, it's so simple.

D'Lo: 36:13

It to me, it's, it's so simple, but when I say it's so basic, I'm also saying like, it's your, your mate, you're trivializing the complexities and the depth in which people can exist, you know, like, yes. Why, why is it that when men show nurturing side that they're stripped of their being seen as masculine? And that's not even about somebody having autonomy and how they even see their own masculinity like,

Alex Iantaffi: 36:49

yes. Yeah, and it's that, like you said, is the personal freedom that it's also collective freedom, right, because when we can let ourselves be ourselves and let other people be themselves, then there is the collective freedom and that of expansiveness, and choice and beauty. You know, I love that you talked about beautiful masculinity, because I think that's that authenticity, that vulnerability is beautiful. And in a way, it's really denied in a lot of ways for for a lot of masculine folks. Yeah, I think for masculine folks of color in lots of different ways. In his Yeah, it is so simple, so complex. So basic, so foundational, all at the same time. Yeah. Yes. So I know, you know, we're kind of going a little bit all over the map. But I think there's also a little bit of a theme around, around freedom, about expansion, about around beauty, as well, right, the beauty of transformation, the beauty of story. So I'm curious about nowadays, you know, we're leaving through yet another moment, and I say yet another moment, because this is not the first time in history and unfortunately, won't be the last day where we're seeing really heightened you know, transphobia really heightened queer phobia. I'm hearing some discourse I hadn't heard for some time, right? Being our communities, being labeled as groomers and all this really ugly things that, you know, I've been used again and again, around against people and against queer people, especially. So how do you find that beauty and joy in your everyday life nowadays? Because I've been really curious about how we, as a community are also finding breast and beauty and joy, to be able to get through yet yet another time. Like I said,

D'Lo: 38:54

great question. I was just doing a show this morning for a group and the title of it was called queer joy. And I know I talk about queer Joy a lot as a comic. But I often like, for me queer, joy, and joy in general, where I find it is like, with my beloved, I'm going to always talk about community and people because that's my number one love, you know, yes, outside of the days, and so

Alex Iantaffi: 39:25

that's fair. There's a connection, they're

D'Lo: 39:30

all collectively usable today at the same time, then, you know, life wouldn't be perfect. It's so so I feel like for me, outside of, you know, my people, it's my people in nature, my nature, like being in nature, we, you know, doing things like that, right. But you mentioned this thing about like, we're in this moment in time, that is like so hard. And I know that I'm in a safe state, quote, unquote. But I can't imagine the depths of the trauma occurring in people's hearts right now, because, for me, as old as I am, my internalized transphobia and queer phobia are like hitting these items. because I'm also listening to people spew this stuff. And I'm like, oh my god, like, and it's making me go all sorts of different places. And I almost have to snap myself out of it. So I thought, well, what is it? If it this is happening to me in a safe state as somebody who's out worthy, like, you know, I'm out there being outspoken about stuff, then that means that people who are even like me, are also dealing with this to some degree, right. And I think and so what I was telling everybody is, I was like, I think that this is pride. Yes, this is Pride Month, and we're all like, you know, but I think it's more important than ever before. Because we assume that things have gotten better. So that's why it's even more important to pick up the phone and call people and tell them. Without you. I wouldn't have been challenged in this way. Or I know myself more because of this, and I appreciate the way you walk in this world. And do you get what I'm saying? Like, those little touch points to people who are unsung heroes? Who should really be some heroes all day every day, you know? Because it takes courage to be who you are every damn day. And I think that that's something that you might not know, for yourself. It's something that I don't know, for myself, do you get what I'm saying? But it takes courage to just be who you fucking are every day. And so I feel like that's the antidote to not having joy is to remember joy, and in the reflections of ourselves, right, which are other people, our community, our best friends, our chosen family, you know, sometimes our families of origin, but generally not. You know, they're trying, they're trying now more than do their best. They're doing their best. But yeah, like, that's, that, to me is, you know, I find joy in my, my young little nieces and nephews, like I find, but it's always about like, that energy and that joy that is like, it's there, it's palpable between two bodies or a group of bodies, you know, and that, to me, is what, that joy is revolutionary. It's what keeps me alive. You know, on all the different levels, you know,

Alex Iantaffi: 43:17

I really hear that sometimes people are like, how are you still doing? Are you still engaging in community are over 50 A lot of people like, you know, just drift away from organizing or drift away from community engagement as we get older, and I might, because I don't know how to live without, I need that, you know what I mean? It's like, I need my elders. I also need my younger people to learn from and call me on my bullshit, which, thankfully, and I thank them every time. You know, like, I don't know how not to like, this is how I survived. That's a queer person. Yeah, this is how like, iron relationships, everything like, what else is there? You know, if not relationships with our kin, like, which is people and as well as nature, the green Bloods, right? Yes. Well, and on that note, because I know you've got another engagement to go on to, I just want to express my gratitude for your wisdom and beauty and time today, but also, just generally about the beautiful work you create and how you move through the world. And just I'm so grateful for this connection that we found and for spending a little bit more time together today. Thank you so much.

D'Lo: 44:32

Oh, thank you so much, Alex, I had the best time I think we're pretty much the same person.

Alex Iantaffi: 44:38

Same person with just different histories, different experiences, but I love it. I love it. I can't wait to share more stories. For today, are gonna say goodbye and thank you to your listeners for for listening for watching. If you're on YouTube, as ever, let me know what you think about the episode. Subscribe, do your rating do your thing. And thank you for spreading and spread joy in your life in your community in your relationship. Until next time,