BEGIN TRANSMISSION The trans allegories of THE MATRIX with Tilly Bridges

Tilly Bridges is one part of the trans woman / cis woman writing team (with her wife Susan) and creators of comics, screenplays, teleplays and audio dramas. On June 27th, Bridges releases BEGIN TRANSMISSION – The Trans Allegories of the Matrix, tracking one person’s transition journey — from Thomas Anderson, to Neo, to Trinity. 

As a transgender woman, Bridges said she had always connected with the Matrix movies on a level so strongly that she didn’t understand. The first time she watched the movies after coming out publicly was revelatory. “I was motivated to rewatch and take notes,” says Bridges. “My entire world turned upside down as I discovered almost frame by frame how deep and layered the allegories were within the films.” Since sharing her essays, she’s been overwhelmed with messages from people her essays have helped. One person said it saved their life. 

Making award-winning audio drama via their production company Pendant Productions since 2004, Tilly and her wife have had six shows crack Apple Podcasts’ top 60 scripted sci-fi shows of all time.” Tilly and Susan are also head writers of the 2023 Nebula Awards and are presently writing for the new Monster High animated series and the Star Trek Adventures an Fallout role-playing games. She lives in Los Angeles. 

CONNECT WITH TILLY ONLINE  
Official Website: birdguest.com 
Twitter: @TillyBridges 
Instagram: @heckyeahtillybridges

Transcript

Alex Iantaffi: 0:34

Welcome to another episode of the gender stories podcast. I am honored and thrilled to be interviewing Tilly Bridges today. Tilly is one part of the trans woman cis woman writing team with her wife, Susan, and creators of comics, screenplays, teleplays, and audio dramas. On June this year, bridges release, begin transmissions which is this wonderful book that I've been reading I'm showing you if you're on YouTube, you get to see the cover. If you're just listening to the podcast, it's got just a lovely cover with the rabbit at the front. And I won't say more than that, but I really recommend reading the book especially if you watch and love the matrix franchise of movies. So bridges releases Begin TransMission, the trans allegories of the matrix tracking one person's transition journey from Thomas Anderson to Neo to Trinity as a transgender woman bridges that she had always connected with the matrix movies on a level so strongly that she didn't understand. And the first time she watched the movies after coming out publicly was rebelled, revelatory, sorry. And Tilly says I was motivated to rewatch and take notes. We're gonna talk more about all the things that inspired this book and why Tilly wrote this book. But I also want to highlight that Tilly is made award winning audio drama by other production company pendant productions since 2004. Tilly and her wife Susan, about six shows crack Apple podcasts, top 60 scripted sci fi shows of all time, and they're also at writers of the 2023 Nebula Awards and are presenting writing for the new Monster High animated series, and the Star Trek adventures and Fallout roleplaying games. And they live in Los Angeles. Welcome, Kelly, it's so good to have you here on gender story. Thank you for making the time. Thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to be here. All righty. So let's get started. I've read the book. But of course, most of the listeners of gender stories haven't. So let's start from kind of why this book and why now, right? You're mostly a script writer, but you were really moved to kind of write this book. And it also seems very timely, in a lot of ways. So I would love for you to share more about the inspiration for this book, and how you feel about the timing of this book coming out.

Tilly Bridges: 3:09

So when I came out publicly, in the summer of 2020, I decided to sort of chronicle my transition and talk about trans issues as I went and things that people might not notice if they're not trans. Because even among trans people who don't have very much privilege, I have a lot. I'm very, very white, I didn't lose any friends or family or jobs when I came out, and I'm in a fairly safe area of the country to live in for trans people. And so that gives me so much more privilege than a lot of other trans people have. And I wanted to use that to help if I could. So that's sort of why I started writing because I'm a writer. And that's what I do. So I thought maybe I could help trans people feel not so alone in the world, talk about things that maybe would help cis people understand us a little bit better. And it was not long after I started that people started asking me about the Matrix films because it was around the same time that the witch housekeys, who wrote and directed the movies, had come out and said that they sort of intended the movies to be an intentional allegory. And people knew that I was a screenwriter, and I was already writing about trans issues. So they started asking me about these all the time and saying, Well, what does that mean? What are the movies trying to say? And so I thought I will. I always loved the movies, but I hadn't seen them since since coming out. So I thought I'll sit down and watch them again. And I can I can write an essay about them. And that became 24 essays covering the entire franchise, because I was so surprised to discover how incredibly deep and specifically they speak to what it is to be trans. And there was so much to talk about to help other people see. And so it was sort of an accidental book that way, it was sort of what I call it. I didn't set out to write a book, but there were so many essays that it was able, I was able to compile them, revise them, and turn them into this book. And when I started I kind of wondered if by the time the book came out, it might not be as relevant because maybe things I mean it's always going to be relevant to some degree because, you know, trans people need to see themselves represented in media have our stories told cis people need to understand us better but I had hoped that the situation for trans people might have gotten better by the time the book would be released. And so maybe it would seem a little less relevant to some people. But unfortunately, things have gotten much, much worse, which I think only makes the book more relevant because it is more important than ever, I think that people understand what it really means to be trans and what it's like to live as a trans person in this world right now. So hopefully, it will, it will help increase understanding out there for the folks that need it and will help other trans people feel not so alone. And like they're seen and understood, because these movies more than anything that I've ever encountered in mass media understand what it is to be trans. Just so so well down down to the very core.

Alex Iantaffi: 6:21

Absolutely. And I really, I really feel that about the timing of this book, right with this. This has been the worst year I think at this point for anti trans bills being introduced, I think it's over 500. Yeah. And so it does seem very timely to put out there a book that not only kind of is very analytical about this metaphors, and allegories in the matrix, but also really kind of highlights how we also live in a matrix, right? That matrix of cisgender is the matrix of the gender binary, and how the matrix Eretz, all of us and so I don't know, if you want to say a little bit more about that piece, which you do highlight in the book, like not only there is a matrix, in the movies, but we are kind of in a social cultural matrix that, in a way was also created to uphold the power, right, white colonial Christian supremacist power. So yeah,

Unknown: 7:20

yeah. I mean, I, you pretty much explained it really well, right there. Yeah, that's the in the allegory, the matrix is the rules of our society that we're all sort of forced into at birth without our consent. So that's the false cisgender binary of only boys, or only girls, only men or only women. And that is, of course, not the case. It's not dependent upon your birth, or your genitals or anything like that. And the movies will show you again, and again, that it is, like you said, it is the the cisgender white men who set up this system to extract power from it and keep themselves at the top of the social hierarchy. And so the movies do a really good job of illustrating that and showing you how they do it, what they get from it, and how that hurts all of us, including cis people, because cis people are also forced into these false gender norms. Right, where, where their bodies get policed, if they don't look enough, like a man or a woman, or whatever they believe the ideal, you know, person to look like. And so it's, um, it Yeah, it's, it's something that harms every single one of us. And the only people that had benefits are cisgender, white men. So it's a, it's a very complicated thing to wake up to, I think, when you have been living inside it your whole life, I think it's very hard for cis people to recognize it at first, not through any fault of who they are as people, but because of the society because they fit so perfectly in the box that they were put in at birth, that they can't see it, right, because society said, you were a man, and you've always felt like a man, you've always believed you're a man, you are a man. And so therefore, you don't even notice that there's anything wrong with that. So it is a very, very hard thing for people to wake up to, to see their privilege to see what this does to society and how it harms all of us. So I'm, I'm hoping that the book, through the movies can help explain that the movies have a lot to say about it. And in a lot of really important ways, a lot of really profound ways. So if if my hope with the book is that people will read it along with watching the movies and take it all within context. And and if you just pay attention to what the movies are saying, and what they're trying to tell you, about how we can make a better society for all of us. I think there's a lot of really, really great stuff there for everybody to learn.

Alex Iantaffi: 10:00

Absolutely. And, you know, and even whether cisgender white men ultimately benefit or not, it's even questionable right into the system, both the system, the matrix that we're in now, but also kind of in the movies, I feel like those kind of all the characters go through a journey, including Smith kind of I think they go through their own journey, in some ways. And so, oh, I have so many thoughts and so many things that I want to follow from what you said, but let's let's talk about the fact of how detailed your book has been rather, so there's literally like timestamps, you know, and that's we watched actually all the movies recently as well, because, you know, had been a long time I watched them when they first came out, you know, and that was I was much younger, you know, in my 20s, and then I kind of rewatch them when the last movie came out, because I wanted to remind myself and then rewatch them kind of along with the book in there. The, the symbols are so there from the beginning, right, there were so many things I had not noticed. And it's so detailed, you know, from, from the, you know, whole trans arpt. Right at the beginning, that the red pill? Yeah, how? How did you manage to pull out so many kind of subtle symptoms, symbols, which are almost easy to overlook when you watch the movie in some ways?

Unknown: 11:27

Yeah, it's just so reach, you know? Yeah, exactly. There's so much there. I think a lot of how I keyed into it all was by examining the names of the characters in these films that which housekeys are very specific with the way they named characters. And if you look up what the names mean, they can give you a clue into who the people are and what they stand for. And that sort of got me thinking about the rest of it. And I had noticed when I was rewatching, the first movie, the very, very specific use of color, and the way Red was used, and red is vital, it's so important to the entire series and in the allegories, but I noticed that it was it was used so specifically with so much intent, and I was trying to figure out what that meant. And then of course, you get to the scene with with the red pill and the blue pill, that iconic scene, the end, you realize that the red pill stood for like, literally an estrogen pill at the time they were read it was called primer, and Neo is literally choosing to take hormone replacement therapy to begin his transition into the woman that he truly is. And so that stands for the truth, the truth, who he truly is. And so that's where the whole idea of red symbolizing truth came from. And when you do that, and you go back, you start the movie again and watch it that way and watch where the red is and why it's there. And what are they saying about? Why would they put it in only this specific spot in this shot? What does that mean? What are they showing you based on where the characters are, and how the shots are composed. You can learn so much so much of these allegories is conveyed visually, through the use of color and the way the shots are set up and established and lit. And I think part of it was also that not only am I a writer, but I am a screenwriter. And so I am always everything, I've watched movies, television shows, even books I read, I'm always deconstructing the story, the shots the direction the acting, to try to learn from it to to learn what I think what works and what doesn't work to you know, improve my own writing. And it's a thing you can't really help when you do a lot of writing. It just happens. And so because of that, I approach it from that angle like, well, if I was a writer, and I was using color in this very specific way, what would I be trying to say with it? Why would you do that? What's the intent behind it? Because everything in a piece of art is a choice made by the creators. And sometimes there are other voices getting in the way you might get studio notes that change the way things come out. And you know, there's compromise and collaboration, but it's all still a choice. Everything you see on screen as a choice, they chose to show it to you this way at this moment in this exact style. And you can learn so much about a story by examining that and looking at at the intent behind it. And the which housekeys are really, really good at that. And if they make me feel very inadequate as a writer, they're very genius. So I was very much outside of the transience of it all. I was just jealous. I was so envious as a writer, I'm like, the level they're working on is so far above what I could do it, it blows my mind.

Alex Iantaffi: 14:47

Yeah, and I mean, they all are covered also, right? It's just not like in the one movie, like you said, it's kind of carried through all of the movies. And in a way they tell the story both kind of in each movie, but in its entirety that tell a larger story. And I think you highlight that beautifully in the book and and one of the things I love about the matrix is that it highlights that the fight is not only external, right, Neil is not just fighting the matrix that's external but it's also fighting the self doubt the the fox the am I really the one right and the second movie, there's so much fighting and you do talk about how in a way that represents once you're out just how challenging it As to exist in the world as a trans person. And so yeah, do you want to say a little bit more about kind of that aspect of both the movies about and and how you really do justice to that in the book as well, the kind of juxtaposition of the external struggle, and also the internal struggle?

Unknown: 15:54

Yeah, there's a lot of a lot of introspection that every trans person goes through, right, not just in determining that we're trans. And figuring that out and choosing to go against what society tells us to be our true selves. But then, like you said, and as the movies very, very clearly show, once you are out, your life changes dramatically. Even for me, when I didn't lose family or friends or a job or a home, the way the world treated me, changed drastically because the world thought I was a cisgender, white man and treated me that way. And even though I never conformed to what that was supposed to be, I was the subject of a lot of bullying in school, because I wasn't, you know, the way cis, white boys had been told to be, I was still given a lot of privilege because of that. And that goes away. As soon as you're out as a trans person, and society starts coming for you, they try to legislate your healthcare away, they try to keep you out of public bathrooms, they try to keep trans kids out of sports. And it's just a mountain of things coming after you. And one of the things that I definitely thought about and that Neo specifically deals with in reloaded is, knowing how hard life was going to be would we still have chosen to transition if we knew ahead of time, and what the movie ultimately comes to say, and the same decision that I came to was that yes, we would have because no matter how hard it gets, it's not as hard as living a lie as not being your true self. That's so much, so much harder to live through. And we don't only do it for ourselves, we do it for every trans person who will come out after us. Because one of the things I think I talked about this in the book, so I'm but like, when I came out publicly, I took a moment to thank all of the trans people that inspired me, and made me feel like I could do it too. Like if they can transition, and they can be out and they can be living their lives full of joy, and happiness. And a lot of them also worked in creative fields. They were also writers, and they had a career and I thought one of my fears was if I if I come out as a trans woman, could I still be a writer? Would people still hire me? Could I still, there's a lot of anti trans discrimination even in Hollywood. So it's, it's, it was a big struggle for me and seeing them out there. Just being themselves experiencing trans joy, telling our stories, it meant so much to me, and it made me feel that I could do it too. And, and I wanted to be able to do that for someone else. If I'm out there. And if I show my joy, if I talk about trans stories and put those things out there, it's going to inspire someone else out there who is not out yet, or maybe not even sure they're trans to find their true self to think that they can do it too. So it's it's internal, but it's also external, not just the the, the struggles, but the rewards because we're a community, and we're all in it together with each other, and we have to help each other through it. And that's also what revolutions gets into a lot. Because one of the main themes of the movie of that movie is dealing with internalized transphobia. And the way society worms that into all of us and how we have to overcome it, if we ever really want to be our true selves and free of the the weight that society places on us thinking, I'm not trans enough, I don't my dysphoria isn't the same as this other person. So maybe I don't have a right to transition. And none of that is true, right? So it's, we can help each other through that as well. We can, you know, we've all been through it, we're all going through it. There are people diff other trans people are at different stages of their journeys. And those who've gone through it before can help us through they can reach a hand back and help us get through that darkness. So, yeah, it's um, a lot of it. When you track the four movies. The first movie is about realizing that you're trans and choosing to transition. So that's where Neo Anderson becomes, I mean, Thomas Anderson becomes Neo. And then right and so then reloaded, as I talked about, is knowing how hard life was going to become Would you still choose to transition? And then when you get to revolutions, it's about internalized transphobia. And, and trying to figure out if society is so set against trans people, where can we possibly We go in the future, how can we find a way forward? What would society have to be in order for trans people to live our full authentic lives free of this, this sort of discrimination. And when you get to the resurrections, that sort of hopeful future that revolutions strove for at the end, did not come to pass. And so Neo has D transitioned back into Thomas Anderson. And it's really, it's really painful for me to watch that knowing that it hurts my heart, that he gave up being his true self, because life was too hard, existing as a trans person, which is, of course, like the main reason trans people D transition is because it's so hard for them to exist as trans in this world. And so it's about realizing that that was still a mistake. And that being your true self, your authentic self is the right thing to do, and choosing to retransmission. And that's when he finally makes it all the way to Trinity through hold through the whole series represents his self actualization. And the fourth one also very specifically deals with the erasure and CO opting of trans voices in general, but also very specifically the which housekeys themselves in the way the red pill has been misappropriated by the right wing elements of our society and taken to mean the exact opposite of what they intended. And what that does to the community, what that does to a person when your words are taken and used against you. So the series just has it has so much to say about so many aspects of, of trans life. You know, when I when I wrote the first, the explanation of the first movie, I didn't think, necessarily that the allegories would continue through every movie and that they did, I never thought that they would have so many different things to say each movie builds upon what came before and talks about a different aspect of trans existence. And it's just, it's just so absolutely remarkable. I was I was also really scared when resurrections came out, because I had written my analysis of the first three movies before that. And I was afraid that resurrections was going to blow it all up and show how wrong I was. And you know that I was just seeing things that weren't really there wasn't what I wanted to see. And so I was really nervous about it. But then I watched the movie. And instead of that what it did is reconfirm everything that I had written about the first three in the strongest way possible, which really blew my mind. So it's, um, yeah, I don't know, I can't, I can't, I can't recommend it enough, just understanding what the which housekeys did in this remarkable series of movies. Because when you understand it, on its most foundational level, and what it's saying about us, it, it gives you a feeling, I don't even know how to describe it. It's there's nothing else that has ever given me that feeling I've never felt so seen by anything. And I've seen, you know, shows that really wonderful shows that are written by trans people that explicitly not an allegory speak to the trans experience. And they're wonderful, and they mean so much to me, but none of them still has gone as deep as this series has, as specifically over so much time. And so, yeah, it's just I want every trans person to be able to feel as seen by those as I do. Because they understand us, they understand us so well down to our very core, and they're there for all of us. They're They're ours, they're their communities, right? They belong to the Maciejewski is, but trans people don't have hardly any media directed at us, we don't have this is the only like, quote unquote, trans franchise that exists. There's nothing else this is all we've got. And we are so lucky that the one franchise we do have is so so good. And so specifically about us through every frame of every movie.

Alex Iantaffi: 24:42

And like you said, one of the things that's different is just how comprehensive of the range of experiences so this right, even like kind of this is too hard. I'm just gonna go back right that retransmission, the RE transitioning through our lifespan, which many trans people experience, right? I'm gonna get out there things are really hard on my take a few steps back from I kind of just dip myself back in, you know, and there can be fluidity and movement in that journey. And sometimes that's a hard thing to talk about. And it's our thing to watch as a trans person too, right. Yeah. And I also love how you talked about how, you know, unfortunately, symbols can be taken away and used in a very different way just like the red pill, right as being appropriated by the right wing. So what would you say to people that, you know, think that, and I've heard this many times, even when I'm like, Oh, here's like, you know, trans allegory in this movie or that movie, and people are like, you're just seeing things because you're trans yourself, and you're seeing everything through that lens. You know, and I'm sure there are cis people who might be listening and think, but I relate to the matrix, and I'm not trans. So why do I relate to the, this franchise? You know, I think it's bigger than just a trans experience. What would you say to those folks who might feel that way?

Unknown: 26:11

Oh, the thing I would say is that it is bigger than the trans experience, because the trans experience is a human experience. trans stories are human stories, you might not know what it's like to transition from your perceived gender to your true gender. But you know, what it's like to go through big changes in your life, you know, what it's like to be scared to do the thing that you know, is right, but you're not sure how people will react, and you're afraid of that, you know, what it's like to have societal expectations placed upon you that you don't necessarily agree with or that you think are outright outright wrong. And it can be really intimidating and difficult to examine that to push back against it. So even if you don't know, what it's like to be transgender, you know what all of those things are, like, every human has been through things like that. And that's why I think everybody can identify with these movies, and maybe don't think that they're trans because they also identify with it. And if they identify with it in their cis, how can it possibly be trans? And, yeah, it's because trans stories are human stories, and you can identify with that. But also, I think there's a nonzero percentage of those people who maybe are eggs and don't realize it right. And they don't want to be like I riff, I ran into that myself at the beginning, and Neo goes through it in the first movie, well, I'm not trans because I don't want to be trans i don't i That would be too hard. I don't want to deal with this. I'm not I'm gonna keep pretending I'm cis, and it doesn't work. It's hard, it's a horrible way to exist. And there was a lot of pushback through that. So again, it's like just getting cis people to wake up to the fact that there is sort of a forced binary that's placed on all of us at birth, that they don't see initially. So it's one of those things, it's like waking up to any of your your possible privileges is can be a very difficult thing to do. Because society is invested in you not doing that it's invested in you upholding the status quo. So those same cis white men at the top can keep extracting power. So it's a really tough thing. But you have to go into these things with an open mind, you have to want to learn, you have to want to understand, and you have to be able to admit that there is definitely a chance that two trans women were writing about trans and it's it's just it's not, you know, there, it's not out of the realm of possibility that that might happen that they might write from their own experiences. And, you know, recently, they've the Maciejewski, some sort of walked back there, they're mentioned that it was intentional, and that they say that some parts definitely were but other parts, it was just them telling stories and examining, you know, what their life was like, and that is absolutely true. But in my perspective, that doesn't make it any less intentional, because like, as a writer, after I came out, after I accepted, and after I realized and then accepted and my transness and came out, I looked back at a lot of my old writing. And it's a little embarrassing now that I couldn't see it. But through so much of it, I was working through my own very complicated feelings about gender. And trying to figure out what that meant in so many of my stories. There's a weird body swap thing happens that oh, man is in a woman's body. What happened? Oh, that's so weird. And it's in like every one of my stories, right? So I was clearly working through something. And if you asked me at the time, are you writing a trans allegory? Are you talking about being trans? I would have been like, no, that's bananas. Of course, I'm not I'm a cis man that I'm just writing fiction, right. But I clearly was subconsciously working through my own transness without realizing it. And all of us do that. There's sort of no kind of well known thing among screenwriters, and I assume this probably also applies to novelists and all kinds of writers where you write the first draft of something. And when you reread it to start your revisions, that's when you figure out what the theme was. Like, sometimes you go in with a theme, we might even have a second secondary theme or some it might end up being something entirely different than what you intended. You look at it and you're like, oh, that's what I was writing about. You didn't even consciously realize it until it was done. And then you go through there. visions, and you strengthen it and make it more intentional. But it's a very known thing that that you kind of often learn what the theme of a piece is, after you've completed that first draft of it. So when we think we're just writing, we're just telling stories, we're always bringing our own baggage to all of that all the things that we're dealing with, that we're thinking about, that's running through our heads gets put into our work, that's what art is, right? It's our expression, it's our feelings, it's our emotion, it's our thoughts and desires. And so even if you're not consciously saying, I'm going to write this about being trans, if you are trans, and you were deeply closeted at the time, as they were and as they have even now admitted that they were deeply closeted at the time, you had to be these movies would have never gotten made. You're going to be working through those things, because that's what's occupying your, your emotional and your emotional space, your energy, your thoughts. And so it's just going to make it into your work. And so I don't think that really changes the intent behind any of it. It's all very clearly still there. And some of it, actually, quite a lot of it, as I point out in the book is very, very surface level. Like if you just look at what Thomas Anderson means the name means twin of the manly or masculine, that that's not a coincidence. You don't accidentally pick that end, even if you did, there's like 500 other examples, that blatant right behind it. So those aren't all chance, if you just look at it with an open mind, and you'll see it's all right there. And a lot of it is very surface level.

Alex Iantaffi: 32:11

I love that. And I agree. You know, I think that as somebody who's also a writer, there is a process of exploration when you write and sometimes you look back and you're like, oh, that's what I was exploring, or that's what I was, I don't know, integrating. And so it makes sense to me that the word Trotsky would create something that did, you know, that speak and did speak to the trans experience, even before they were out? And I also love what you said about you know, some people might think there says might be not transient, I know you use the term AG, which for the listeners who don't know, that means just somebody who doesn't was not aware yet of their trans identity. Sometimes people around them might be, but they they're not quite yet aware. And I say sometimes people around them i because it's like when I came out, everybody was like, oh, yeah, about time, very few people are surprised.

Unknown: 33:06

Yeah, that happens to a lot of us.

Alex Iantaffi: 33:08

Exactly. I don't even that's a unique experience. In Panama, even you know, those six people watch and love the matrix. I think, of course, like we all love it, you know, I truly believe that we all have a relationship with gender, that's kind of foundational to the podcast, but it's also foundational to a lot of my writing, I really, truly believe that gender liberation is for everybody. And we are all in this matrix. Right. And, and then matrix is restrictive. Ultimately, for everyone, you know, even think in some way it's, I'm always fascinated by agents math, also, when I watch the movies, because there is a lot in that character too. So I don't know if you want to speak to, to that even to like, how does this matrix impacts like, even the pinnacle, let's say, which is this white man of power? They're still impacted. So yes,

Unknown: 34:02

yeah. Okay. So Smith is fascinating, because he starts off as sort of the personification of the passive transphobia, of society, of a society that maybe I stress maybe didn't know, trans people existed in thought there were only six men and six women and set it up that way. And so when you're in a society that's established that way, trans people are going to be left out and oppressed, just by the very basics of that. But over the course of the first movie, as he comes to understand, and Neo and Neos transness, he morphs into the personification of active transphobia, the kind that acknowledges that trans people do exist only so that they can try to stop us from existing, legislate against against us and try to make it impossible for us to get health care and be our true selves. And he sort of stays as that through the rest of the movies. But he has this journey he goes on, where you see it mostly in reloaded and in through revolutions, where he he's envious, that Neo or trans people don't play by the rules of society. We don't have to do what society says because we know society is wrong. And he wants to feel that freedom to it's an envy. It's a jealous and I think a lot of transphobic cis people have that within them where we don't follow the rules and they don't understand why they have to, and we don't. And of course they don't have to, but they feel like they do. And so then he gets to this point where he's exactly this is part of the genius of it is that the atrocities saw all these the right wing, men's rights activist people who appropriated the red pill coming and Smith becomes one of them. And he's, he's like, No, I'm outside of the system, just like you I'm so outside of the system. Nobody's the boss of me. I'm the one deciding what I want to do. And what I want to do is oppress trans people and uphold the cisgender binary, right? And he doesn't even understand that that's exactly what society wants him to do. You are part of the matrix, you are part of society, you're doing exactly what they want. He's, he's so far inside the matrix, he thinks he's outside of it. And that's all of those people who, who have misappropriated the red pill that used to stand for Oh, take the red pill. And it means you will understand that cis white men are the oppressed ones. And we're the ones losing our rights because other people are finally getting them. And it's, it's bonkers. And when you get to when you get to resurrections, he's he's sort of taken on a literal new face, he tries to pretend that he's gentler and kinder, and he uses buzzwords. And he and and the analysts specifically both sort of fall into that rainbow capitalism area where they're all like, we're cool, and we're hip, and we're giving you a t shirt with a trans flag on it. Now, don't ask us for any rights, because you've got enough, that's all you need. And the second that Neo is like, no, that's not all I need, I need to be my true self, I need to have equal rights and access to the medication that I need. This Smith goes right back to how he's always been. Right, he's, he's transphobia. He's active transphobia trying to end you. And so they use him really, really brilliantly through the entire series to say a lot about that, that aspect of our society, and how circular their logic is.

Alex Iantaffi: 37:40

Absolutely. And you know, and that's one of the things I love is kind of that journey of almost all these different phases of cisgender, ism and transphobia through the franchise, right, as well as exploring that trans experience, in some ways, exploring all the ways in which suicidally, we might encounter you know, from indifference and erasure, and ignorance all the way to hate all the way to covert discrimination, you know, and all the way back on into very open and hostile kind of transformed. Yeah, if if anything is poked at? Absolutely. And like you said, it's just layers and layers and layers. I feel like we could talk about this all day. Really? One of the things I'm curious about, right, I mean, it's like there's so many layers. I have things I'm curious about is your relationship to science fiction and speculative fiction. I've actually been talking about this a lot lately, because I'm interviewing quite a few speculative fiction and sci fi author or people who love space. And I think there is something about trans and queer folks really being into sci fi and speculative fiction as a way of the exploring existing healing even Yeah, I'm just curious about your relationship to sci fi, and where that passion for sci fi comes from? And yeah, just your relationship to the genre.

Unknown: 39:10

Yeah, I deeply love sci fi and fantasy, and it started in childhood. And it probably, honestly, looking back, it probably started with Star Trek, which I'm still an absolutely massive fan of. And I remember seeing it as a kid and being so I don't know what the word is just surprised at how at the sort of Utopia ik world that it presents at the look at all of these people who are so different, and so vastly strange, even some of the aliens right, and they're all coming together. They're accepting each other for who they are. And because of their differences, they like that it makes them stronger together, and they can accomplish good in this world by working together and accepting each other. And Star Trek was also really heavily leans into allegory a lot of times as a lot of sci fi does, because it lends itself to that because you can talk about important political issues of the day without it being that on the surface, and so like, especially on a TV show, like Star Trek, even like the original in the 60s, they could talk about racism without talking about racism, and getting that on TV in the 60s would have as a surface level like racism story of about like, the way white people in this society treat black people would have been almost impossible. But because of the Sci Fi layer over it because of using allegory, they were able to tell these really important stories that you couldn't really tell otherwise at the time. And, you know, I think that absolutely holds true with the matrix. Because if the rich housekeys, were out as trans women in the late 90s, they would have never gotten this movie deal. We're in 2023, and trans people can't get TV shows sold, we can't get movies made, we have trouble getting hired on there, there are TV shows about trans people that have no trans writers on the staff. And yeah, it's still it's that hard for us now. And so if they didn't use allegory, if they said, here's going to be a movie, maybe not even a franchise, just the first movie, and it's going to be about discovering that you're trans and accepting it and choosing to transition, no one would have ever given them the money to make that movie, no one would have ever let them make that movie, Warner Brothers wouldn't have turned it into a franchise that made them tons and tons and tons of money. And all of us people would not have gotten to see it, and we would not have gotten to feel so seeing by it and understood by it. And, and there's so much value in that. And genre fiction gives you that, that incredible power to do that. To to to tell these stories, and get them past the gatekeepers without them realizing that's what you're doing. And then you get it out into the world. And you know, that's one of the things that the movies talk about, very specifically is that cis, people are the gatekeepers to just about everything trans people need in this world. Like very specifically, they were the gatekeepers to the witch housekeys getting their stories out, but also like, almost all doctors that trans people have our cis doctors, because there's not that many trans people, and not all of us can have trans doctors. And we like when I wanted to get access to hormone replacement therapy, I had to speak to a therapist first and convince this cis woman that I was trans that I am a woman. And you shouldn't have to do that I shouldn't have to convince this person that I'm trans right in order to get my healthcare. And it's really messed up. So our whole society is like that in so many ways. And so that's one of the really beautiful things about genre stories is that they, they can get those stories out there. And they can also let us imagine better worlds where where things go right, and you know, we can create a better society together. They can show us a path forward and a way to brighter futures. And I love that.

Alex Iantaffi: 43:15

Absolutely. There's just a subversive power inherently present, I think in sci fi and fantasy and speculative fiction, which is really wonderful and freeing. Yes, again, could talk about this. So all day. I am curious. All along. Honestly, maybe we should maybe we should have a whole other episode talking just about science fiction, I'd be up for it. I'm curious, you know, in a way you talk about this franchise with a lot of warmth and affection, both in our conversation, both the book, is there anything that about the matrix? I'm just gonna call it the matrix franchise to refer to the totality of the movies? Is there anything that you're like? The what Trotsky's could have done better? You know, about this aspect? Or that aspect? Is there a kind of any aspect of the movies that you feel could be different? Or could be better? Or maybe weariness? I don't know, something that you don't like about them? I guess it's all I'm asking at its basic level.

Unknown: 44:24

Yeah, there's only one thing, really, and it's in resurrections. The context of that movie changed from the original trilogy, because after the original trilogy ended, the Witch Huskies came out under very different circumstances. And it wasn't that great. I believe it was for Lily, she was outed without her. Okay, and her say so, which is terrible. And that should never ever happen to anybody. But they are out now. And so when you go into resurrections, you are getting a story from lanova Chomsky, who is an out trans woman, she's been out for 20 years. And that's so so different than being closeted in the late 90s and early 2000s. And so the context has changed there. And what I was disappointed by was that there were not more trans people on screen in resurrections. There's one I think there's just one trans man who appears and I think he might only have one or two lines. It's a really tiny little roll. And that's it. And that really does it pointed me because I understand, especially in the original trilogy, why that couldn't have happened, you know, even they weren't even allowed to portray switch as a trans character in the show which they were going to be one gender outside of the matrix and a different gender inside. And even within that sci fi construct, Warner Brothers wouldn't let them do it. And so I absolutely understand that there weren't any trans people on screen or out trans people on screen anyway, as far as we know, in that original trilogy, but I really, really hoped that we could have had a lot more trans people on screen, in the fourth movie, because it's, it's, you know, again, the, the inherent transness of them, and how important they are to the entire community, and have been for decades, to get to see more of us represented in it. And I don't, the hard thing with Hollywood, for people who aren't maybe as excited as I am, is that you don't know who's responsible for that. Lana could have had a list of 10 transactors that she wanted to put in. And Warner Brothers said, No, we have no way to know, I believe the witch house keys are both so very public about their trans anus, they do so much for trans causes. They're wonderful advocates. So I feel like Lana probably would have tried to get more in there, and was just still even still with all the clout, and experience and credits that she has now probably still was not allowed to. We don't know, we have no way to know what the actual reasoning behind that is. If it was studio notes, if it was producer notes, if it was a choice of liners, which I really don't think it was, but we really don't have any way to know. So there's nobody we can point to and blame for it. But I just find it a kind of a disappointing thing i'd really hoped we would get to have a lot more of us be seen as part of that world.

Alex Iantaffi: 47:32

I agree. Because it's like I understand historically, we've had to see ourselves through allegory, right through metaphor, but you know, you would hope but I think it highlights just how strong that matrix is, in some way, not just the matrix of the movies, but our matrix of cisgender ism, that even with all that fame, power, money influence, you still cannot center a trans story in such a major, you know, dominant culture sci fi franchise, let's call it, it really goes to show how strong the matrix is. And I love how you said we can point our finger to anybody. And often that's how cisgender ism works, right and ideology. So you can say it's this person or that person, because it's the whole ideology that keeps perpetuating that erasure and the lack of representation. Yeah. Yes, yeah. It's, it's a little bit depressing, I have to say when we think about it. But yes, and at the same time, I think that it's a testament to our creativity, how we still get to tell our stories, as trans people, we still get to create our content, tell our stories, even in the face of a system that's very much against that. And that very much doesn't want us to be visible or to tell our stories. And that that is beautiful.

Unknown: 48:56

It is what well, it's really tough. Like, if you're looking at mainstream media to find trans movies or trans TV shows, you can definitely find it if you look at the indie stuff. There are so many trans people out there creating and just putting up their stories, their short films, their their web comics, their their writing, their novels, their short stories, all of these things. If you look online, there's so many. And that's really beautiful. And I'm, I wouldn't want to lose that. But I do think we also need that mainstream representation, because attitudes on trans people in this country really do need to change. And mostly, it's a very vocal minority. That's against us, right? Like we saw in the 2022 elections in the United States. Every Republican that campaigned on an anti trans rhetoric lost their race. And that's really good. It shows that the the majority of people in this country aren't against us. But I think there isn't maybe also a majority, that's for us. There's a lot of people that are just ambivalent about us. And they don't understand that that ambivalence enables the bigotry, right? If you're not fighting it, you're part of the problem. You're allowing it to happen. And the way we can get more of those people on our side is having more of those people exposed to us so that they can learn our stories they can see we're just human beings like them. We have the same likes and dislikes and some of us love pineapple on pizza and some of us don't. And it's okay, right. We're just human beings. And there's a great story that I love to point To about this in that the TV sitcom modern family had a gay male couple that was just presented like any other married couple on the show, they had little arguments, they had little in jokes, they were very loving, they loved each other, they were in a great relationship. And there was like studies done that showed that because that show was so popular, and it was on a mainstream US television network, it changed perception in this country towards marriage equality. And it's part of what led marriage equality happened was that the public perception changed. Because art is so powerful to show these human experiences. And all of those people living in tiny little towns that maybe didn't know any out gay people didn't know what it was, like, learned. And they were like, Oh, my gosh, they're just normal people like us, they have the same little quirks, they have the same little foibles, they're also they can be great. They can have problems, they're just human beings. And once you realize that, you realize we're all not that different from each other. And it becomes so much harder to not care about those people or to actively hate them. Understanding breeds acceptance. So I think that the in the trans creative scene is beautiful and wonderful, and I never want to lose it. But we do also need cis accomplices in the mainstream media to help us get our stories out there and get them told, because that's what's going to really change or at least really help change things for the better in this country.

Alex Iantaffi: 52:07

Absolutely. I think that storytelling is so important to help with empathy and connection, right? Because often people feel well, the trans experience is so different from my experiences miles away, but is it miles away? Because I don't think so. And, you know, the number of times I know, it's really not exactly,

Unknown: 52:29

yeah, I've talked to you know, I've talked to a lot of cis people who have told me that, before talking to me, or before reading a bunch of the essays that I've written and posted about the trans experience that they didn't know any trans people, they've never met any trans people that they weren't aware of. And they just didn't know anything about trans life, and what what it was like, and what's how society treats us what it's really like to have to deal with all of this societal transphobia. And they understand now, and one of the most beautiful things is that I've had a lot of cisgender parents of trans kids tell me that they understand their trans kids better, and I want to feel better able to support them in in being their true selves. And that's beautiful. And that's wonderful. And that's all that we need in this world is just understanding. So that's why I put myself out there. That's why I write all of the things I do. That's why I wrote this book. Because I just want I just want us all to get along. We're all just a big, happy, fumbling, dirty family of human beings, right? We're all flawed. And we're all beautiful in our own way. So

Alex Iantaffi: 53:39

Oh, absolutely. I relate to so much of what you said. Even as a writer, you know, and the reason I write mostly nonfiction, but a lot of whatever I even like how to understand your gender or matter book, gender trauma is really a lot of it is for cis audiences. Don't get me wrong. I'm always overjoyed when trans and non binary folks and gender expansive folks get something out of what they're reading. But one of my intention is always to, you know, invite cisgender people into this conversation about gender in a way that helps them kind of crack the matrix open a little bit more. And it's so satisfying when I got those messages of like, I'm a straight man, and I got a lot out of reading your book. And I'm like, Yes, that's exactly what I want. I want you to get a lot out of reading this book. Absolutely. But it's at both ends, right? It's like, trans creators tend to be more fringe and it is time for trans voices, I think to get more centered and to and to be more visible in a kind of mainstream way. I really agree with where you turn this kind of tide. I think that's so important. Again, this is another aspect of the conversation that I could be having for ages, but I do want to be respectful of your time. So I will ask you the last question that I always ask, which is, is there anything that I have not asked you about or that we haven't talked about that you were really hoping to communicate to the listeners of Dunder story? So any stone that we left unturned, which you really like to kind of communicate to our listeners? And if there isn't, that's okay to

Tilly Bridges: 55:28

know, I think I think this was a great discussion, and I think we've covered most of it. I think the one thing I just want want everyone to take away from the book, but mostly from the movies is like I say the book, I'm just a guide, I'm just an interpreter. This is all the work and the genius of the witch housekeys. They have brilliant minds and gigantic hearts. And they have such beautiful, beautiful things to say about humanity, and where we can go together if we just stop hating each other. So that's really it, you know, just just try to keep approach everybody with an open mind. We're all human beings, we're all dealing with our own crap. And just be kind and try to help each other through and always, always reach for understanding. That's like at the core of these movies, right? Just we're all human beings choose not to hate each other, choose to love instead.

Alex Iantaffi: 56:27

I love that what a beautiful message to end on. And if people want to find out more about your work in general, as well as order your book, where should they go on the internet,

Tilly Bridges: 56:40

you can order the book. It's open for pre orders right now, everywhere that you can order books. It's available in hardcover, paperback, and digital, and I will be working on an audio book, but we don't have a date for that yet. But that will be coming down the line if that is what you prefer. If you are interested in my trans essays, that cover media, they cover how to be a good ally, they covered the trans basics if you just don't know, they cover trans life and what it's like to live as a trans person in this world. Those are all at Tillys trans tuesdays.com, which is also a podcast if you prefer listening that way that you can find on all podcasting platforms. If you are interested in the fiction, and screenwriting that my wife and I do as a team, you can find links to all of our work and credits at bird guests.com. And I'm on just about every social media as Tilly bridges, so you can look me up and say hi. And if you if you have questions about this stuff, or any of this stuff, please hit me up. I'm always delighted to talk about it. And people will never ever get me to shut up about the matrix. It's a real problem. So if you have questions, if you read the book and you want something explained better, or whatever, just hit me up and say hi, I'll never ever shut up. You might regret it because I'll never stop talking about I hear

Alex Iantaffi: 58:02

I'd have up so I think that's a delightful trade that have been that's a problem. But yeah, so I will put all those links in the episode description listeners. So don't worry, if you cannot miss them. As silly was saying them. I'm gonna put them all in the episode description so that you can find all that information. And here's the book, Begin TransMission, the trans allegories of the matrix. And you know, as silly says, I really recommend reading it alongside watching the movies. It really is an experience. And it's a wonderful experience. Thank you so much Tilly. It's been such a pleasure and a joy to have you on the show. It's been wonderful to talk about the matrix. And I love your message of love and connection that you left us with. So thank you so much for your time today.

Tilly Bridges: 58:57

While you're very kind Thank you for having me. This was an absolutely great discussion and you're wonderful.

Alex Iantaffi: 59:03

Thank you. And thank you listeners. And now viewers for those of you who are watching the podcasts on YouTube now that we started uploading on YouTube. And I hope that you've enjoyed this episode. Thank you for listening. Thank you for your loyalty your reviews. I really appreciate you and until next time