Queering the tarot: a conversation with Cassandra Snow

Alex Iantaffi interviews Cassandra Snow, author of Queering the Tarot. Cassandra Snow (they/them/she/her) is a professional tarot card reader, teacher, writer, and theatre maker in Minneapolis, MN. Cassandra believes tarot is a powerful tool for insight that leads to healing that leads to liberation and empowerment. Their tarot practice centers around empowerment of queer seekers, overcoming personal trauma, practical step by step business or creative plans and spiritual guidance. As a writer, tarot is also one of Cassandra's  focuses, and she penned the long running queer journey through the tarot, Queering the Tarot at Thecolu.mn and Little Red Tarot, now available on Patreon. This series has been turned into a book through RedWheel/Wieser Publishing and was released in May 2019! Cassandra's writing has been featured not only on their own blog and at Little Red Tarot, but at Take Your Pills (a mental health blog), and Howlround. Cassandra also served as Contributing Arts Editor at TheColu.mn until its closing. Cassandra also runs Gadfly Theatre Productions, a queer and feminist theatre company in Minneapolis, MN who makes queer art by and for queer people. They serve as co-artistic director for the company and have for the past ten years. Cassandra has been reading tarot for over about 14 years and has "gone pro" for about 9 years. You can find out more at www.cassandra-snow.com.  Their instagram handle is tarotcassandra and they offer daily tarot guidance and advice there and on their community style patreon at patreon.com/cassandrasnow

Transcript

Musical Intro: 0:01

There's a whole lotta things I want to tell you about. Adventures dangerous and queer. Some you could guess and some I've only hinted at, so please lend me your ear.

Narrator: 0:28

Everyone has a relationship with gender. What's your story? Hello and welcome to Gender stories with your host, Dr. Alex Iantaffi.

Alex Iantaffi: 0:36

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Gender Stories. I'm your host, Dr. Alex Iantaffi. And today I'm interviewing another wonderful guest. I know I always say I'm excited, but I truly am excited every time. I have such wonderful community. So today, I'm interviewing Cassandra Snow. They are a professional tarot card reader, a teacher, a writer, and theater maker on the Anishinabe land currently known as Minneapolis, Minnesota where I also live. So I'm super excited to be interviewing them because kind of we've been intersecting in community for a while. But this time, I get to go a little bit more in depth in your work. So welcome, Cassandra, and thank you so much for agreeing to being on the show.

Cassandra Snow: 1:19

Absolutely. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

Alex Iantaffi: 1:23

So I gave a very brief introduction to all the wonderful things you do and I wondered if you could share a little bit more about your work with our listeners.

Cassandra Snow: 1:33

Yeah, absolutely. I think even though what you said was short, it was pretty succinct. I read tarot cards professionally, and I teach how to read tarot, professionally. I'm a writer as well. I write primarily about tarot and witchcraft as well as personal stories. Um, and then I do run a small theatre company here in the Twin Cities called Gadfly Theatre Productions. It is a queer Theatre Company, which we define as doing queer art for and by queer people. So we try to keep that very community based. My general tarot work, my general teaching work. There definitely has been in my writing, there definitely has been focus on making it accessible to queer community to people who have been marginalized. I feel like tarot and witchcraft and tarot specifically are such amazing tools to have in your back pocket. When you are marginalized. I think it can lead to an inner healing, sort of spiritually, emotionally, that can lead to all kinds of empowerment and thriving and when we are all coming from that place, we can create such big beautiful change.

Alex Iantaffi: 2:48

And that is fantastic. I feel like I have a million questions. But one of the things that I thought would be perfect for our listeners is that I feel gender is actually a lot to do with your work. And I was wondering kind of, you know, in a lot of kind of more traditional tarot decks, there are lots of very binary gender, is pretty cisgenderis or heteronormative. What inspired you to kind of write queer in the tarot and kind of taking this approach to the tradition?

Cassandra Snow: 3:18

Yeah, so as a writer, and I would say also, as a theatre maker that's just not quite as relevant in this moment, but I try to do work that I would like to read that I would like to see resources that I wish I had when I was younger or newer on my path, as a queer person or you know, whatever I'm working with. I started reading Tarot actually several years before I became out of the closet, or before I came out of the closet, morning, but... and so for me, it was so much self discovery. But then I felt like once I was out of the closet and once I was coming from as gay and once I was coming from that point of view, you know, I'm very non binary gender fluid. And my gender is very fluid and I felt like with everything being so binary and hierarchical in the tarot, I started hitting a lot of walls really fast when I was trying to figure out gender stuff. And you know, I worked through it I figured it out and not just with tarot, I've also been in therapy since I was a child but like, with all the tools that I had, um, and once I did sort through it and figure out what worked for me I was like, this shouldn't just be for me I want to sort of make this known or give other people ideas on how they can work through it and still kind of work within the system of tarot or not my. You know, I have a book out called Queering The Tarot and it talks a lot about um, the taro framework and how you can work within that. But then we also talk about sort of deconstructing it and rebuilding from there for something that really works for us. A fun exercise, if anyone is listening and wants even just like a peek. I have people look at their court cards, which are four cards in each of the suits in tarot, that are usually like, page, knight, queen, king. And those are all meant to be like roles or energies that you take on throughout your life and an exercise that I do in Queering The Tarot classes, I have people write their own court card, sort of SI nations that don't have anything to do with gender, or have everything to do with your gender and no other genders or however you want to do it. Something that is going to be more affirming for you. And so that's something listeners can just go do tonight if they want to.

Alex Iantaffi: 5:56

That sounds really amazing and creative. And I love that about your work. And I wonder if you could say a little bit more about kind of deconstructing the tarot as a tool in itself. Like you said, that was a really beautiful exercise. And I'm curious about what people come up with? What does it mean to kind of approach this tool that sounds like you love and you go out over the years, but also kind of approaching it with this critical eye and kind of cracking it wide open in some ways?

Cassandra Snow: 6:26

Oh, well, I approach everything with a critical eye to the point that my baseline enjoyment of things is sometimes hindered. But um, I do approach everything with a critical eye. But when some people say that, I feel like there's almost a cynicism to it but I approach everything with a critical eye of like, how can I make this more welcoming to me and to other people who maybe identify the way I do? And then from there, I say, Well, who else is not being included in this? And how can I do that? And so I almost go in with it into it with an optimistic eye, with an eye of like, okay, this thing isn't perfect, but it could be. So how do I get it there? And so I go into it with that same level of tarot, but also with that love for my community and I think how can I make this work and so that's where a lot of it comes from.

Alex Iantaffi: 7:22

Yeah, and that's what I love, it's kind of sometimes we look at things, you know, a critical approach is about just kind of, almost like destroying the gym. But that's not what you're doing, you're, you're cracking it wide open with love, so they can be more accessible, more inclusive, something that people can relate to. And so they don't have to go through the same process of, in some ways, those are my words, not yours, but feeling alienated. That was my experience with the tarot, as I was kind of looking at my own gender, my own queerness I was like, I love this tool, and yet I cannot relate to it. And it was only when I found the first kind of tarot deck that I found that really related to was the cosmic tribe, because it started to kind of challenge some of the imagery. And, you know, now we have so many better necks, you know, world and slow howler, you know, like, we have so many more choices, including things that are made by trans and queer kind of creators. But just finding that representation was so powerful. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that kind of, what difference does it make to use a different deck? So same tool, but different deck and in terms of gender representation, and imagery, specifically.

Cassandra Snow: 8:40

I think it makes a huge difference. You know, I wrote my book from the standpoint of how can you make any deck one that you can work with, but then that's also so much work. And I know that a lot of people don't have access and so that's what they're left with. They're left with the very classic decks and my book, like in smaller towns that are still carrying my book, or whatever. And so I made a tool that you could work around that with, hopefully, but it honestly was such a huge revelation to have decks that talked openly about gender fluidity, that talked openly about multiple genders that were very affirming, you know, I have a chosen family structure that is not necessarily represented and there still hasn't been a perfect deck for that. But there's definitely decks that have gotten a lot closer, and that prioritize chosen family and sort of like platonic intimacy as highly as romance or sex, which is like really important to me. I do you know, I'm a double Pisces, I do really value romance texts but my platonic relationships are not always but sometimes even more meaningful to me. So between that and you know, my own gender stuff, which I'm even still in therapy to kind of sort through and work through. I don't know just having those decks, it's like it cracked me wide open. And it was like I went back to that place where I was just like a scared freshman. And I saw like honesty and truth and myself reflected in the cards. And it was almost like going back to that place in the best way.

Alex Iantaffi: 10:21

That's wonderful and the question that's coming to mind as you were talking about the, all of this was really, I wonder if also tarot as being a tool of exploration, when it does come to gender and effect, can it be a tool of exploration for people are looking at their gender? And that question is just coming to me, so I'm totally putting you on the spot. Like, I wonder if you know that tarot itself can be also another tool that people use as they explore themselves and their own gender identities and expressions. What do you think about that wild idea?

Cassandra Snow: 10:59

I actually love it. And there's a spread that I teach sometimes, where you just kind of like, lay down five or seven cards, it should be an odd number, because there should be like a middle card. And it's still not a perfect exercise, like tarot is still limited. And that's why there are so many new explorations of it to move past those limitations. Um, but you know, you sort of I sort of say, Okay, on this side, what if, how would I feel if I was presenting as like, the most masculine version of myself? And how, on the other end, the most feminine version of myself? And then I sort of see where on that spectrum and those cards, do I look the happiest this day, or this week, or this month. And so that's one way to still acknowledge that there's a lot of binaries in the tarot, but that sometimes you would feel happiest or most yourself. And then if none of those look great, I say, how would I, I'll throw down another card, not in that line and say, Okay, how will how would I feel presenting totally outside the spectrum today, whatever that means to me. And usually there, you'll get a happier card. Um, if nothing in the line looks good to you. So that's one way. That's one exercise I really like. I also just think, you know, when I teach tarot, I tell them when you are learning cards that have a lot of gender binary

in them, you have two options: 12:22

you can either recognize that you can either totally throw it out and build your own interpretations or you can recognize that maybe, sometimes exploration isn't comfortable, sometimes coming to terms with things isn't comfortable. And so you can also recognize, like, okay, maybe I actually needed this message, because this is something I need to deal with even if it is hard in this moment. And you have to know yourself pretty well to kind of know which route is the right one and not just the most comfortable one for you in that time. But most of my clients are pretty self aware, most of my students are becoming very self aware. And so you know, just kind of figuring out what you need in that moment, is another way that you can really explore that you just, but tarot for anything, you've got to be a little bit willing to get uncomfortable sometimes.

Alex Iantaffi: 13:19

Upset? Absolutely because there might be things that you maybe haven't been quite ready to hear or that you want to know. And absolutely, that is so true. And that's a good segue in your work as a kind of material teacher and coach and reader. And I wonder kind of how gender impacts that work. You know, often when we interface with clients a lot, you know, that I know for myself as a non binary person that can have an impact, depending how people are reading my gender. And I wonder and also, depending on the gender identity and experiences of my clients.

Cassandra Snow: 13:52

Yeah.

Alex Iantaffi: 13:53

And I wonder what that negotiation that dance is like for you in your work?

Cassandra Snow: 13:57

Yeah. Um, so I've been really lucky as a teacher, I don't know that I've really run into a lot of obstacles, I'm teaching at places like The Future Here in Minneapolis, or the Eye of Horus, or, you know, I did a sex positive Tarot class at the Smitten Kitten. And those are places where students are already sort of, like, in the know, and so, um, you know, I've been very lucky there. I will say, with clients, I try to leave myself out of it as much as possible. And that does mean like, there are clients, I've had a lot for a long time that I'm not totally necessarily out, you know, as non binary to, um, in terms of sort of, and then I will say in terms of there still is a lot of sexism, whether you're perceived female or not. You know, tarot is a field that is largely female driven, I think. Cisgender men are actually kind of a novelty in tarot, which does mean that they still make a little more money a little quicker, things like that. So that sexism is still there. But I think the way it most presents to me is like, because I read as female and because my voice sounds like this, it's like ageism, but also that isn't warranted because I'm in my mid 30s. But because I look feminine and my voice sounds like this, I get very skeptical, like, how long have you been doing this questions and things like that and I always think that's so silly. I'm like a decade and a half and their mouths are like what? Um, so that's one way it really presents. I think, when I'm reading for someone else, I think tarot like anything else should be a conversation. I do not think it should just be the reader sitting in the chair, and talking at someone and hoping stuff sticks. At one of my study tarot gigs, I only do 15 minute readings. And each card can mean like 100 different things. So there's no way I'm just going to assume I know which thing it's trying to tell me and get you the right interpretation. There needs to be, you know, a conversation. I do usually ask pronouns unless I know the person personally, and I already know them. And that only gives you like the tiniest glimpse of the picture. But it still gives you a glimpse. And then from there, I just kind of see what we're going through. I think it's interesting, because a lot of people that are seeing me at this point in my career that are non binary, or that are trans at all, have already sort of figured out their gender, figured out where they're going and what they're doing. A lot of what they're wanting is that deeper inner healing. And I think gender definitely still impacts that it just is different than that. Like, who even at my stage, which is what I got a lot at the beginning of my career, but those clients have like, been with me for a really long time. So we've worked together through that.

Alex Iantaffi: 17:01

And I love what you said about like, you've been doing this a long time. Yeah, I've been doing this for over 15 years, you know, you have a wonderful book out. And yet there is still this kind of how long have you been doing? Yes, you know, this question of your authority, which has a lot to do with gender right?

Cassandra Snow: 17:17

Oh, yeah.

Alex Iantaffi: 17:17

There's some kind of presenting in a certain way that people might read as feminine, compared to if it was somebody read as masculine in their mid 30s. That might not be questioned in the same way. And I think that's true in every field. But then, I think in many pagan traditions or witchcraft, there's also this weird twist where because there are not that many cis men actually cis get into teaching and leadership are faster. Yeah, even make more money for classes and things. And, and I wonder what, yeah, what has that been like for you to keep experiencing that, as you, you know, go through your career and in in the community at large as well.

Cassandra Snow: 17:59

I mean, it's been difficult, it has been tricky. You know, we're very lucky to have places with the like the future that really prioritize not those voices, and that really prioritize having other leaders and teachers in. I'm fairly ambitious. So I feel like in the tarot community, because tarot is having a moment, there's a lot of opportunity to just like, if you're the first person to contact someone offering a Tarot class, you're probably going to get that class, not to give all my secrets to all the readers but there's also a good jillion businesses in the Twin Cities, so it's probably fine. And so, I think that what I'm trying to say with that is that I just have had to get creative. There are a lot of staple places in the Twin Cities that I was like, Okay, well, that's covered, and that's covered. So you either get creative in what class material you want to teach, you know, bring something that hasn't really been done before, or where you're approaching. I love teaching tarot one on one, I love watching people's eyes light up. That when they you know, they're starting to see connections and figure things out for the first time with the cards. And so that just means I've had to work harder and get creative and be like, Okay, well, maybe a casual night here or like, you know, I did my class at the Smitten Kitten, or I'm just really thinking outside the box in terms of who would want this. There's another queer tarot reader in town who taught a class at a all female co working space downtown. And after I saw that on her Instagram, I was just like, Oh, that's such a good idea. Like, so just being creative about where you approach and that does mean that you work harder but I think that's true for people who are not cisgender men in any field, honestly.

Alex Iantaffi: 19:51

Yeah, that's what I was about to say sounds like, like, all of us who have some combination of marginalized identities have to figure out okay, where are the cracks I can get in and where the spaces that are supportive of who I am and kind of go with that. And talking of which, I'm really interested in talking a little bit about your theater work as well. With Gadfly, you know, talking about making space, creating, you know, spaces because in some ways it can seem so different, right? You you do all this work with tarot. But what gadfly theatre is doing is also amazing. And so I'm curious both about, do those two parts of your life feel really separate? Do they feel connected? And also why Gadfly? That's like a million questions at once.

Cassandra Snow: 20:37

Thats okay. Um, I have really good boundaries around my work in general. And it's, you know, if you're listening and you don't have good boundaries or under work, trust me, it took like a decade and a half to get there. So you're not doing it wrong but I do currently have really good boundaries around my work. And that does, you know, just for my own peace of mind, that does mean keeping them relatively separate. There is legal rule that I'm really comfortable with a lot of my clients do come from theater community, because I'm the person that they know that does tarot. A lot of my students also are like, Oh, that seems like a cool thing. Or you know, our theater kids that think tarot seems like a cool thing to learn. I do use Tarot a lot in my writing, I do use tarot, you know, just to kind of help me get unstuck, remove blocks, even if I'm doing like a personal piece, I'll you know, pull some cards to figure out which way I should be going with it. And I do the same thing with theater projects, too. If it feels like oh, we're not, you know, I'm not connected. I'm a director, producer and if it feels like, oh, I'm not connecting with the cast enough, or something like or, Oh, I'm just not getting this piece, even though I selected it so I thought I got it and pulling some cards there. There are also just certain like, I think things that used to be considered New Agey, or witchcraft or something like that, that are now more commonplace that I bring into the rehearsal room to things like mindfulness exercises at the beginning things like, you know, finding unique ways for us to connect as artists. And then, you know, I always have everyone if they're physically able to take a couple of deep breaths and sort of ground and root before we begin rehearsals so we remember like where we are and what we're doing. Because I also, you know, I want to move away from white supremacy from patriarchy. And there's a lot of work that goes into doing that, because theater is, you know, kind of a problematic field for that. But one of those things is like, there's like a theater adage, I don't believe in it all that says to leave any drama that's not for the stage at the door or something like that. And I don't believe that at all, I think that's an incredibly like capitalist, patriarchal, white supremacist ideal. I want you to bring your whole self into the rehearsal space. And also, we do have to get the work done. And so that's why, you know, we sort of do some of that deeper breathing, some of that grounding, so that we are all here holding space for each other in the present. But we are kind of focused and able to move forward. And again, all of that sort of used to be considered in paganism, culty. But I think so much of that mindfulness work is really commonplace now, which is a beautiful shift that we've had as a society. Um, I think, what were some of your other questions?

Alex Iantaffi: 23:33

The other question was basically why Gadfly? Oh, yeah, it's feminist theater. There are many theatre companies where we live, but what you're doing it's, it is different from other theatre company, and it is very specific. So I want you to have an opportunity to share that work with our listeners.

Cassandra Snow: 23:49

Yeah. So I, me and my queer platonic partners started Gadfly really straight out of college, which like zero out of 10 do not recommend, like, I definitely wish I had gotten some real world like theater work experience first. I feel like I those first couple of years would have been maybe not even better, but just easier on us. But we've been doing this, you know, 10 11 12 years, I've kind of lost track. But, um originally, we just wanted to be an outlet for plays that were very sort of social justice oriented. And then that was such a vague thing that we weren't happy. And once we realized that, like we we both come from the Bible Belt. And you know, to us that felt like, that felt really radical once we were like, in Minneapolis. We were like, Oh, well, there's tons of space for that. And there's so many people here that think that that's just innately what theater should be, which is great. And I agree with that. And then we were like, if we're being honest with ourselves, do we even want to be doing work? That is not queer and realized we didn't. Um, we've really moved from there, we've gone through several different mission statements. And I think we're happiest now with the idea that we're doing queer art for and by queer people. Um, you know, we have really good relationships in town with several activist organizations, like the bisexual organizing project, like, you know, some other theatre companies that are similar minded. We've even done like, marketing partnerships with Girl Scout and places like that. So I'm bringing in community like that has changed and I think elevated our work a lot. I think the last show we did that. I know it was the last show we did. And it's probably the one I've been the most proud of. I was coming out of a TBI and I was like, but I was willing to work hard. But I also knew that like a traditional stage play format wasn't really what I wanted, or what's gonna work for me. And I said, well, how can I give as many queer people as much voice to talk about whatever they want as possible. And so instead of doing one play, which is usually you know, 1-3 stories, depending on how its structured, we did 60 Queer plays in 90 minutes and we had a team of writers, most of whom were also actors in the show, and then a couple of extra actors as well. And even for that, you know, everyone brought in pieces that they wrote, and that we did, um, and then we still I left a space in there for us to devise a piece together for us to all come together as a cast and build a piece. And I think that that, that play represents really what we're trying to do as a company on the whole. It was just sort of like an extreme example of that. And I just, you know, I had a TBI last year, and I came out of it very afraid to kind of rejoin real life once I was cleared and better. But I also came out of it feeling very, almost just like, yeah, life is fragile. Might as well hit it hard. So I did this big project that was like, something I've been sitting on for a long time, but never felt ready for, but I don't think you ever really feel ready for your dreams, you just have to go for it anyway. And so you know, that's what we did. That has led us to where we are now we do an annual one act festival that is all sort of like geeky themes that still fit our mission. This year we're doing in a world which so there's, you know, there's some futurism there's some sci fi, there's some dystopia. And they're sort of a fantastical show as well in there. It's only five shows this year, not six, I had to pull the one that I was directing out of the play or out of the festival for health reasons. But the five shows that are left are so good, I think it's a good, we're not gonna do the festival again after this year. So if people have wanted to see it, this is the year to come. And so and that's for just like, we've been running a company for 10 years, we're tired, we're just trying to make things as smooth as possible for us and everyone else from here on out. Because there is a very real issue of queer art closing left and right all over town. And we don't want to do that. And we don't want to be that. And so to do that, you know, you have to simplify sometimes. So in the name of lasting forever. We're cutting the one act festival, but it's so good this year. There's a play that is about that is a gay romcom between two men, that is also about fascism and global warming and as people playing lobsters. So that's a really good piece. We have one that explores sort of themes of death and autonomy and death and what should happen to you and how much say do your loved ones get and it does that with like an AI robot character. We have one that's like a queer alien meets Firefly, but like what if people had listened to the women and all of those cases?We have one that's being written, devised and performed by two disabled queer Jewish artists. Poets, both of them poets, called the columns protect themselves. And I know very little about the piece except I think these artists are fantastic so I'm excited to see what they do. And then we have ne more. Oh, yeah. Oh, gosh, Please edit out the part where I forgot what it is, but we have one called Maritza Isla Prix which is about mental health in the future. It's when meds are rampant but therapists are in short supply and how do you carry on from there? And that sort of being. It's like semi written and sort of being collaborated and devised as they go. So I'm really, it's a really fantastic festival. It's going to be at the current haunted basement space at the former Herbergers at Rosedale center in Roseville, starting November 8. Then you can find out more at gadflytheatre.org, theatres with an RE.

Alex Iantaffi: 30:45

That's wonderful, because actually, I'm going to ask you like where people can find all of your work. But before I do that, like one of the things I really want to comment on is our expansive the work of Gadfly is right? That beautiful like you know, 60 plays in 90 minutes is a beautiful description of how broad the community. Yes, queer communities. And I feel like that's the thread in your work right? This expansiveness, expansiveness and material, expansiveness in theater, and making space for marginalized voices, experiences and identities. And I think you do that really well. I'm really greatful for your work.

Cassandra Snow: 31:24

Thank you.

Alex Iantaffi: 31:26

So one question I always ask at the end of my podcast, is there anything that I have not asked you about that you really wanted to talk about on the show?

Cassandra Snow: 31:36

Um, we did talk about Queering The Tarot and it sounds like I'll have a chance to talk about, you know, calls to action in a second. So I will say I have a follow up book that is not going to be out until late 2020 but that is a book about queer witchcraft, or I guess more queer in witchcraft, where I kind of call into question, some of the incredibly binary ways that we practice paganism. And it's also you know, I think anytime you're writing a witchcraft book, you kind of start at basics. So if you're super experienced, which you should still pick it up, because there's some new stuff in there but it definitely is super beginner friendly, too. I've never written a witchcraft book before. I've mostly written tarot. And so I kind of had to start at like, Okay, I feel like I need to explain the elements and I feel like I need to explain different kinds of magic. So it's still going to be out through wiser read wheel, which is my current publisher, and I absolutely love them. That'll be out in 2020. I think that's the only thing I haven't gotten to talk about. I will just say in that vein of, you know, you brought up questioning things in the tarot and I think my queering witchcraft books, that's not its title, but I think it does the same thing. And it is sort of like, looking at everything critically, but with love and I think that's a really important takeaway along with the expansiveness that you've talked about.

Alex Iantaffi: 33:08

Absolutely, and I think the two go hand in hand in lots ways, right? That kind of critical kind of view with love is to make space. Is for expansion, you know, we cannot be afraid we can, we can love something and crack it open, and still love it and make more room for all experiences in it, which I love that. It's kind of how I live my life too. And yes, I would love for listeners to know you know, where they can find your work, all different aspects of your work. You know, you've mentioned kind of where they can find out more about Gadfly. But if you could do a call to action, things that you'd like listeners to know where they can find you, where can they find your books, that kind of thing. That would be wonderful.

Cassandra Snow: 33:55

Yeah, so unfortunately, I don't have any classes coming up to promote but the best way to know about them is to follow my social media. My Instagram handle is Tarot Cassandra, and then my Twitter handle annoyingly is Taro Cassandras because Taro Cassandra was taken by someone that does not use the account and I would say those two I'm much more active on those and then my website Cassandra-snow.com. There's like a newsletter sign up as soon as you go there and then my classes are always announced on my newsletter. In terms of tarot I read every Sunday and Wednesday at the Eye of Horus and Lynn Lake neighborhood, and then the second and fourth Thursday at the Future, which is nearish to Powder Horn is right by the Chatterbox, kind of over there. And then, and then I do have email readings available on my website as well. Um for those who are listening but not in the cities or even those who are in the cities but don't like leaving their house, I respect that. And then my book Queering the Tarot is available wherever you buy books, especially metaphysical stores that carry books, especially LGBTQ+, you know, memorabilia stores. There aren't that many left in the US, but there are some, but any of those that carry books, but any bookstore should be able to order it for you. And then it is available on the big online sellers as well. So literally just anywhere, you can also get it from the library, at least in the Twin Cities, you can. Also if you don't know this, you can wherever you live, you can request a book for your library, and that still helps me if they don't already have it. So um, because then they get it and that still benefits me and my publisher. So those are the big things with the book for Gadfly again, you want to visit gadflytheatre.org theater with an 'RE'. We do have an Instagram handle, which is just gadfly theatre, theatre with an RE. Tickets will be for sale in the next week or so we're admittedly a little behind on that because life, but they will be going up in the next week or so.

Alex Iantaffi: 36:20

Thank you so much. And thank you Gender Story listeners for being with us for another episode. I hope you've really enjoyed listening to Cassandra and find out more about their work. Both their theater work and their tarot work and I would really recommend picking up a copy of Queer in the Tarot if you're into it, because it's a really wonderful book. And generally if you want to know more about gender, you can always pick up How to Understand Your Gender Practical Guide for exploring who you are, or Life Isn't Binary. If you're curious about all this non binary stuff that Cassandra and I have been talking about. Thank you for listening and see you next time.