Speculative Queer Fiction with Redfern Jon Barrett

Redfern Jon Barrett (they/them) is author to novels including Proud Pink Sky, a speculative story set in the world’s first LGBTQ+ state – which will be released by Bywater Books in March 2023. Redfern’s essays, reviews, and short stories have appeared in publications including The Sun Magazine, Guernica, Strange Horizons, Passages North, PinkNews, Booth, FFO, ParSec, Orca, and Nature Futures. They are nonbinary, have a Ph.D. in Literature, and currently live in Berlin. Read more at redjon.com.

** Proud Pink Sky is a novel set in the world's first gay state – described as “gripping” and a “remarkable alternate history” by Publisher’s Weekly. **

VIEW THE VIDEO TRAILER

VIEW PUBLISHER'S PAGE

Transcript

Musical Intro: 0:38

There's a whole lot of things I want to tell you about. Adventures dangerous and queer. Some you can guess and some I've only hinted at, so please lend me an ear.

Narrator: 1:00

Everyone has a relationship with gender. What's your story? Hello and welcome to Gender stories with your host, Dr. Alex Iantaffi.

Alex Iantaffi: 1:10

Welcome to another episode of gender stories. It is my honor and my pleasure to introduce to you Redfern Jon Barrett, who is the other two novels including proud things sky is speculative stories set in the world's first LGBTQ plus state, which has been released by by waterbucks in March 2023. Redfern's, essays, reviews and short stories ever appeared in publications including the sun magazine, where Anika strange horizons passages North pink news booth FFL, Parsec, orca and nature futures. They are non binary queer as a PhD in literature and currently live in Berlin, where actually this book is also set. So welcome, welcome red furnace. So good to have you on gender story. Yes, I love the the physical copy, please do show it because now we do video as well as audio. So there's the book has a beautiful cover, you should definitely buy it. It's a fantastic book, and I can't wait to talk with you about it. So let's start with you know, I've read the book and I've got some questions about it. But let's start by introducing the book to our listeners and viewers and just maybe give them an overview without any spoilers of course, for those who have not read it.

Redfern Jon Barrett: 2:27

Yeah, absolutely. So properly sky is set in the world's first LGBTQ State. It's an alternate Berlin, and the city is divided into different districts. So there's districts for different cultures, different lesbian cultures, and then by people, queer people, trans people and other people who don't conform in various ways, live in slums on the outskirts. And it's really an exploration of LGBTQ identities, and the conflicts and also solidarity that exist between different communities. It's also an NP topia novel, which is a concept that I've been exploring, merging the breaking down the binary of of utopia and dystopia in order to merge the extremes of both and create something wholly new, something that is dramatic and has, you know, this utopian dystopian elements, but which isn't dogmatically one way or the other, which I think is honestly the only way to explore LGBTQ cultures, you know, a large, so yeah, it's setting the world's first gay state. It follows two central characters. There's the teenage William, who, with his lover, escapes his homophobic home and flees to the city and city, who is a young mother of two. And she has been living in the city for six years, but she's never really explored it. And when the novel starts, she starts to get more curious about the city. And when her family is caught in a riot, she becomes she finds it

Alex Iantaffi: 4:11

that's okay.

Redfern Jon Barrett: 4:13

Yeah, she she's drawn to find out what's going on. And to explore this.

Alex Iantaffi: 4:20

I love it that I am so excited for those of you who have not read this novel yet you're in for a treat. It's really really good. It's gripping. You know, when I picked it up, couldn't put it down. I just wanted to know everything that happened to the character, so I highly recommend reading it and and I love that you mentioned that challenging that dystopian Utopia binary because actually, that was one of my questions. Like, why did you feel it was important to challenge the binary construct in speculative fiction of Utopia versus dystopia? Like what made it feel like? Yeah, why not go into one of the traditional directions? Let's call them of utopia and dystopia and go for this and be topia, I think you called it right.

Redfern Jon Barrett: 5:06

Absolutely. Yeah. And what have you, you know, I really love both utopia and dystopia. I'm not like anti genres. And, you know, I've written dystopian short stories before. I mean, I've written books of dystopia. But I think that each of them have like their own limitations, you know, and I think there's sometimes not obvious for utopia. You know, I think we don't get a lot of works of utopian fiction because I'm It can be quite a rigid thing, you know, to, you know, no one's really going to agree on what a perfect world actually is. And also, that's a society that can never change, you know, that is permanently fixed. And also just, it can be difficult to write utopia, you know, like, finding conflict and drama within that setting. And dystopia, you know, is a lot of fun. And I really, really enjoy writing dystopia. But the issue with dystopia is I don't think that it's as socially useful as as a genre. You know, I don't think that, you know, we think of dystopia as warnings. And I think that implicitly, we think of dystopia as protecting us against the scenarios that they show, you know, we don't necessarily think of it overtly in that way. But, you know, this idea that these warnings can can help protect us from the future. And I don't think that's really the case. You know, I don't think that I would say, you know, I don't think that 1984 really did much, you know, to combat the surveillance state, you know, it didn't stop it. I mean,

Alex Iantaffi: 6:39

it doesn't seem to have

Redfern Jon Barrett: 6:42

much as I love cyberpunk, and prepping skies work of cyberpunk. It's portraying these kind of hyper capitalist futures, hasn't really done much to stop the momentum of, you know, sort of, you know, these kind of like distorted economic realities happening. And I think that what actually happens when we write speculative fiction, and when we write the future, I think that we bring it closer into being I think we change people's expectations of the future. So if we're to write a future scenario in which the government is overbearing, and authoritarian, and other people pick up on that and create works that the same when you grow up without gives the idea that that is what the future is gonna be, you know, and if we it's the same whether it you know, whether the future is kind of a polluted wasteland in, we almost stem start to think of the world in a couple of centuries, time has just been that, you know, so whereas Utopia can inspire, I think that dystopia, like likewise manages our expectations, you know, and kind of drags them down into in visiting futures that are darker and bleaker. So what I think is really want to do with what I really want to do with Danby topia is use the useful things about dystopia, for example, you know, these kinds of like, analysis of society, and what could go wrong, what is going wrong, and extrapolate on that, and take the elements of Utopia the elements that can give us hope, the elements that show what is good about our species, and how things can get better, and to interweave the two of them, you know, in order to create fiction that is both inspiring, but also deals with our real problems. And I think that that's something especially important for marginalized people. Because, you know, I think it's very, very difficult for marginalized people often to connect with utopia, because it doesn't recognize our struggles that we go through, it doesn't recognize the suffering that we often experience, you know, and I think that can make it difficult, at least for me to relate to, you know, your dress like this, you know, I often get trouble on the street, and I can't really properly connect with realities that don't recognize that kind of oppression. But at the same time, you don't want to wallow in it, you know. So I think that mix of hope and critique is really, really central to NP topia, and what I think can be totally can be useful.

Alex Iantaffi: 9:16

I love that. And I love them paraphrasing what you said, I think, but you said it much more beautifully. About when we write the future, you know, we're also kind of bring into being in some ways, and I kind of got chills when you said that. And I thought, yes, really made me think about how, in a way or fear collective here, as expressed itself in a lot of dystopian, really seeing the rise of even dystopian narratives in dominant culture, you know, through Hollywood movies and TV series, like The Last of Us hands on, I think it's really a manifestation of how overwhelmed and afraid a lot of us are about the future. And so in a way, it was really refreshing to read this and have ambi topia normal, where things were messy, you know, what I mean, things are not easy to see. And, and I love that because life is messy. And so let's talk about speculative fiction as a medium for a moment if that's okay. In and I really think that speculative fiction, I don't think it's an accident that there are so many queer folks in speculative fiction, right. I think it really gives us an opportunity to like expand, explore, imagining, even heal sometime, right. And so I know you said a little bit about your feelings about the Soca versus you Dope. Yeah, but what's your relationship to speculative fiction as a genre in general?

Redfern Jon Barrett: 10:41

I think like, as, like a lot of queer people, I think that we kind of need speculative fiction, especially, you know, in moments that do seem particularly dark, you know, when homo queer and transphobia are all on the rise. And I think that we need to, it helps us to think about future possibilities. And you know, I think that that, and it's a relationship that can be difficult and complex, for example, you know, like, one of my favorite novels, you know, as a teenager was The Handmaid's Tale, and, but I couldn't bring myself to finish watching the show, because you know, that the current environment I can't deal with, with watching a show in which I would be dead, and my friends would be dead, you know, that a future that doesn't even include us. And, of course, that's not a critique of Atwoods work, it is important, and it is something that's that's had a huge impact. But I think that we really, really need kind of a level of inspiration, we have to look to the future. I mean, I think as well as something that a lot of marginalized groups, likewise need is to actually look forward and say, What can we build? What do we want? You know, it's an important part of activism. And also, I think, just just getting through the day, you know, for queer people to think of worlds that could be, you know, better or at least different from the one in which we live. And it's not pure escapism, that's an important thing as well, you know, it's not like we just want to only side up I don't just want to vanish into another world and forget about this one as fun as that can be. It's, it's to find inspiration, I think. And I think that's why so many queer people are drawn to speculative fiction because their futures in which or they're often futures in which we can have more agency and less harm, I think, and for me, that's, that's something that, you know, whether it's I read recently, cat Rambo's, you sexy thing, and I just loved it. You know, it's just this, this world in which sexuality, gender identity, and everything is so much more fluid. I felt the same with Becky Chambers as work recently. And yeah, and I think that's something that can itself be really easy.

Alex Iantaffi: 13:01

Absolutely. Oh, I have so many thoughts going on right now. But let's talk about the timing of your novel. Because just the other day, you know, I was on Twitter, and somebody was like, and again, I don't remember the exact words, but you know, that we did something like I think I'm ready to talk about kind of a LGBTQ Plastination, right. And I found a view immediately, because I'm like, Oh, I've just been reading about that quite recently. And so yes, during this kind of what I would call the rise of fascism in many countries, including where I'm located now, the US my home country of Italy, I think the UK also seeing kind of a rise of we can call it conservativism. Fascism, but whatever we call it, there is a lot of anti queer and anti trans, especially sentiment. Yeah, the timing of your novel, in a way seems pretty attuned to the Times did that have an influence? Like the current socio political, cultural environment on your decision to write this novel? Or did the inspiration come from somewhere else? But I'm just curious about the relationship to this time, if that makes sense.

Redfern Jon Barrett: 14:13

Yeah, I mean, the timing, something that is really kind of coincidental. I don't want to say, fortunate because it's not a fortunate situation. But actually started writing this novel 10 years ago. And when I started writing, it was a short story. And, you know, I sent out some places and I got this kind of consistent response that this is, this is too big a setting for short story that it's, it would do with being longer. So yeah, then over 10 years, I wrote it and rewrote it. And it's, it's something that's been influenced as time has gone by, by recent events, but its core, the novel was always critiquing what I what I like to call kind of the nesting dolls of hate for a start, you know, this idea of, of taking out your own oppression onto people who have even potentially even less power than you do. And, you know, that was something that I saw ever since I was 18 years old, that's when, you know, when I first went to university and got involved with, you know, sort of LGBTQ activism, you know, immediately you know, of course, encountered a lot of lovely people and a lot of very tolerant and supportive people as always exist in queer communities. But at the same time I encountered you know, immediately that kind of transphobia by phobia and I believe hassled me because it was like, you know, why? Why do this? You know, we've we've been like invalidated ourselves. We've come under, you know, pressure and attacks ourselves. Like, why would you continue this? And I've seen it kind of over and over, you know, both in Britain, I've seen it here in Berlin. And I couldn't really not write about it, because it's something that has always kind of fascinated me like, What is this need? Where did where does it come from? And I think a lot of different places, which is what I wanted to explore in propping sky. But yeah, so it's kind of it is kind of helpful, I think, in the way that it's coming out now as things are kind of coming to a head because I think it is more important than ever, that queer and trans online fiction actually is out there. Because I think that at the moment, there is this kind of battle of people's perceptions of LGBTQ people. And I really, really think that we need to, and we don't get a lot of chance to tell our stories, to be perfectly honest. Like, the media generally isn't very interested in talking to actually queer and trans people. It's always a bunch of streets before talking about us to each others. It's always been. And yeah, sorry. So I think I think prepping sky is is has come about at an opportune moment. Yeah, absolutely.

Alex Iantaffi: 16:53

Yeah. And you talked about inspiration, right, with speculative fiction. I'm curious about, was there an intention of what you wanted to inspire in the reader with proud pink sky? You know, and as the vision changed over the 10 years of writing the novel?

Redfern Jon Barrett: 17:11

Um, yeah, I mean, this kind of ties back to me topia, again, because I think part of the reason that I don't feel very comfortable writing utopia is, I don't want to hand the reader my idea of a perfect world. And this is how things should be. And this is kind of similar message, you know, there are things that I want to want to explore myself. And I think that's really where my inspiration for writing generally comes from, is, I get really curious about certain scenarios, certain aspects of humanity, and then I want to explore it for myself, and then hope that other people do as well. So there's not like one particular message beyond, you know, kind of, I'm a very firm believer in solidarity, you know, I think it's really, really important, especially because the forces that are faced by minorities are very, very large, very well funded, and very well organized. And without solidarity, I really, really fear for the future. So that is a message that I want to get across. But the actual details of those things are something that I wanted to, for the reader to kind of interpret themselves. And so there's a lot of characters in prepping skies with a lot of different viewpoints. And I kind of didn't want any one of them necessarily to dominate, but to have this kind of collection of experiences in the novel, and what it really means to be gay, lesbian, bi, trans or queer.

Alex Iantaffi: 18:45

Yeah, and one of the things that it's really interesting, even in the opening of the novel, where you have that just this little guide to this alternative, we're laying right is that you're, you're the gay district, you're the lesbian district, or bisexuality was made legal in 1969, or something like that. I think in the novel, I don't know if I remember the year Exactly. But I was curious about the role of identities that challenge binaries, whether it is kind of cisgender ism, so the gender binary, or the binary of gay versus lesbian, and what happens when that also becomes a challenging of power in this alternative, kind of world? And so I hope I'm making sense. Does that make sense?

Redfern Jon Barrett: 19:33

Yeah, I think the challenging binaries is always to challenge power and power structures. Because power relies on binaries, it relies on in groups and out groups. And especially since the 19th century, we've really, really a society has kind of gone all out on categorizing people and placing them in boxes. And that's something that has become core to people's conceptions of identity is that they have this very, very fixed idea of themselves. It is distinct from another group. And that's true, whether you're a straight person looking at gay people, or whether you're gay looking at trans people or lesbian people. It's there's always this compulsion to limit yourself. And I do understand that, you know, it's when I was 18, I came out as gay and that was something that at first I really he really felt like kind of comforted by the kind of like, the walls of this box, essentially. But then I feel like it's to kind of fundamentally ignore yourself to just wall yourself in like that and to box yourself in. Because we're not static beings, we're always changing. And I think that it is really, really important. You know, if I'd seen myself now 18 years old, I think I would have been terrified. You know, I think that would have really felt like, Oh, what is this person? Because I think I did, you know, I really bought into this idea of not outright masculinity, but you know, kind of gender identity being very fixed and solid. And I'm kind of glad that I always stayed open to that. And I think that it is something that is hugely beneficial to question if those binaries that we find ourselves in both on like a kind of wider social level, but also on a personal one, because you really never know what you can find out about yourself.

Alex Iantaffi: 21:35

Absolutely, I love what you said about that challenging binaries, in some ways is to challenge power. Because there is kind of almost these units to the possibility and the expansiveness right of no boxes. And so I also really heard when you said there was comfort in those walls, I'm like, Yes, from a trauma perspective, there is a sense of containment and belonging, right. This is where I belong. Like, I remember when I first came out, and, you know, I was saying I was by and there's a lot of by phobia on the lesbian scene, which is where I was at the time because of our presented, and I didn't come out as trans yet. And so very quickly, I was like, well, the only like, sis men I'm attracted to are gay. So I guess I can be a lesbian, you know, because I wanted a sense of belonging, right? There is safety in the sense of like belonging to like a pack and being contained within a box. But then there's also limitations, right? Like you said, you never know what you can find out when you can go out of that box. And so, yeah, that is such a field that both micro and macro struggle, right. It's an internal struggle. And I think it's also a political struggle, right at the moment, there was a lot of talk, for example, how a lot of disabled people feel really failed by even progressive and kind of leftist movements, right, during this pandemic, and, and now that we're all pretending that this pandemic is over. And so this idea of cross movement, solidarity, which is also in your book is very challenging. So how did you? You know, this is also a story about organizing, I feel in some ways proud pink sky. Right. So how did you manage those challenges? Have portraying those tensions between, you know, in groups, how groups, people who fall into those cracks, right, like by and some binary non binary folks do? Yes. What How did you navigate those? Because those are not easy conversations to write or tensions to write? I don't think

Redfern Jon Barrett: 23:44

not at all, no. It was something very challenging. You know, I really, really didn't with this book at all want to, through a village or prioritize one any group over any other? You know, I think that there are absolutely wonderful and important aspects to all LGBTQ communities. And, yeah, I really didn't want to also contribute to that division by adding a book that's like gay versus trans or something like that, that would be kind of opposite to the point. At the same time, you've got to kind of show these conflicts show where these kinds of prejudices come from, and how those might be different in different communities. And so yeah, it's horribly difficult. I'm still not sure if I really got it, right. I think probably every reader is going to feel different about that. But yeah, it's, it's really something and that's partly why it took so long to write as well, you know, trying to really, really bring all of this out. And also, you know, it's, it's really important to me that straight and sis people can read this book and understand what's going on and identify with it themselves as well. You know, I didn't only want to write a book that was for the LGBTQ community. And so that's another challenge as well, you know, writing this in a way that actually is also in many ways like an introduction to LGBTQ cultures, for those who aren't very familiar with it, whilst also not alienating people who are very familiar with it, you know, so it was just hard to be perfectly

Alex Iantaffi: 25:22

No wonder it took you 10 years to read this book. That there's a lot to like address there and and also want to talk about the setting because In a way, I feel that sending it in, in Berlin is connected to all of those conversations. Right? And so I was curious about, you know, why Berlin, your relationship to Berlin, as somebody who I assume from your accent has moved to there from the UK, I don't want to make assumption, because we haven't talked about that. But that's my assumption I'm making explicit. So. And in a way, you know, my understanding of Berlin, even though I haven't visited in a long time, is that it is a city where there is there are lots of differences and contradictions, co-habiting, even kind of queer world. And so yeah, tell me more about why Berlin and your relationship to Berlin, if you want to, of course, yeah,

Redfern Jon Barrett: 26:20

absolutely. So, I moved to Berlin in 2010. I lived in Wales for eight years previously to that, where I've done my mining studies. And yeah, for a few years, I planned on moving to Berlin with my then partner, and it was something I'd finished my PhD and also save up enough money, because we didn't have a lot of that. So Berlin wound up kind of being this dream, that I kind of had for a few years before it could actually happen. And I think like all of these kind of longer term dreams, when it actually meets reality, it can be quite a jarring experience, you know, not that I knew exactly what to expect, but I kind of had this idea of, of Berlin as this, you know, it was quite utopia. Especially, you know, you read Berlin's got half a million people would advise gay and lesbian, presumably not even including, you know, by queer trans people. And, yeah, and, of course, I've had a lot of great experiences here. And I've met a lot of extremely wonderful people here. At the same time, nowhere is free from the same problems that I saw back in Wales, you know, and there's, in some ways, Berlin, even in an even more extreme way, has certain amounts of segregation in the city. Temptation is putting it to too harshly and I don't mean to appropriate that word. But Berlin has these kind of, like divisions and separations. Yeah. And, you know, like, for example, I think it's like much less common for queer men and queer women, for example, to spend time together in Berlin than it was back in Wales, you know, Republic has community is smaller. And maybe because community is so much bigger here, people can kind of divide off, you know, into their own groupings, they don't have a huge amount of content necessarily with each other. And so, yeah, I think that partly was kind of an inspiration for prepping sky, you know, this kind of when we actually have enough of us, it almost becomes less unified. You know, the more? Yeah, I've kind of gone up and down a lot with the city, you know, over the years, I've been here for 13 years now. So it's, that's a lot of times I have a lot of different feelings about it. Yeah, and I think that's also kind of what inspired me to start writing MB topia, as well, because that's how I feel about this city. You know, Berlin is a city of extremes. And that's extreme good and extreme bad. And this kind of Uncanny mix of the two, you know,

Alex Iantaffi: 28:59

absolutely. I really related, when you talked about, you know, when there's more of us, it's easier to kind of separate it and kind of Hive off, I don't know if that's the right term. But you know, I remember like, even, you know, in and of course, as more openly out and trans queer people who need any delay now, but in the 80s, not a lot of people without a screen trans. Right. And so there is kind of a coming together across identities. You know, even I used to be on this, like, Italian lesbian email list. And it wasn't a big deal when I came out as bi people were in all sorts of living situations, because, you know, queer stick together no matter what, right? But when you have more people than it's easier to kind of almost replicate those structures of power that we're used to, right. Oh, let me stay safe in kind of my area. But then what happens when you've done easily belong to one district? Literally, actually, or the other right, then? Then you end up at the margins again, right? Because you don't quite belong neatly into a box. And so yeah, and I'm just kind of just reflecting on that idea of like, we can have those utopian dreams, like you said, but those utopian dreams can quickly become dystopian, if you don't fit neatly into the very tight box, which cannot change. And I think we're seeing a lot of that with even, you know, square people being increasingly recruited. into the anti trans movement, right? Almost like this is a threat to you know, your identity, who was, you know, who's really gay in air quotes was really lesbian, you know, trans people are taking away from our communities. Just that sense of fear. Yeah, and I don't know, if you want to kind of comment on that, or if that's also part of what you kind of sow in the world and kind of wove into the book or Yeah.

Redfern Jon Barrett: 31:02

Yeah, I mean, yeah, it is something that, you know, encountered, from, from the moment that I started. When I, when I joined, what was then that LGB society at my university, and, you know, there were those of us who fought very hard to have the tea added at the time. And, yeah, honestly, it was, it was often quite extreme, the Swansea University, in the early 2000s, you know, there was a huge amount of anti trans sentiment and backlash. And I was one of the only male bodied people who was competing against this, this anti trans sentiment, and that was very afraid at the time. And I think that that made I remember giving a speech, for example, in front of the student body, and the president of the Union at the time, who I felt was quite transphobic person packed the meeting with athletics union, so, you know, sports guys, and there were about 200 of them, and I'd give the speech, and it was a, you know, sort of shaking 20 of the speech. And yeah, those those kind of experiences, really kind of, have stuck. And I think that wound up inspiring a novel in that sense. And I think that the response from a lot of gay and lesbian people at the University at the time was fear was real fear. And it was we've got to protect ourselves by distancing ourselves from people who seem less even less normal than us, you know, it's like, kind of sucking up to the bully kind of mentality. I think, in some ways, that fear is understandable. I felt that fear too. But it's really, really not the right approach. And you know, I think the people who spent any time thinking about this, you know, you realize it doesn't stop at one group, you know, you're always next on the chopping block. Yeah, and I think that this kind of, has always been there. But the difference recently is that there are very, very, very well funded campaigns against trans people in particular, because elements of the right are always looking for wedge issues, always looking for scapegoats. Trans people fit the bill perfectly, because a lot of people are quite ignorant about trans views, trans people's experiences. Yeah, and so I don't think it's necessarily in some ways, it's something that is quite old, but at the same time, it's something that is, is being given a kind of new force, a new like empowerment to it. And so we have to like kind of work hard never to establish the solidarity. And I think that that solidarity does exist with most gay, lesbian and bi people towards trans people, you know, I like to think about the fact that one of the most pro trans groups that there is, are lesbian women, you know, that there's an overwhelming amount of support when surveyed among lesbian women towards trans people. Not to say that there's not been transphobia there's been communities of course. But the media kind of often distorts this and it takes these like for you transphobic gay and lesbian people and platforms, the hell out of them. So that even if 95% of people who are gay or lesbian, either have no strong feelings for trans people, or stand in solidarity with them, it gives an impression that there's ultimately like this, this huge groundswell of hate. Yeah, which I think is a real problem, obviously.

Alex Iantaffi: 34:47

Absolutely. And you know, when you were talking about, in a way, those kind of techniques to inspire fear, right, like taking this 5% and platforming or like the president of the Student Union like packing you know, the room with like, jocks basically, like sports people, it's an intimidation technique, right? And it made me think about the opening of your book where the you know, I don't want to give too many spoilers, but there is a young person who after being bullied and, you know, experiencing physical violence from their peers that is subject to kind of the headmaster's intimidation and threat really for the story of homophobic violence that kind of uses to in intimidate this young person. And then there is an exchange with the same person, their lover about, you know, their love or going country be more of a land, right? Because even if it's about sexuality, it's also about gender, right? It's about those people who just cannot hide it. Right? And so because of that, that there's that dialogue, right, which makes sense, like, in terms of survival, right. Some people survive by hiding and pretending, and sometimes even participating in the homophobic violence against peers, because it's so scary to be on the other side. But some of us have never been those people who can hide it. Right. And so then then what happens, you know, yeah, and I love the opening of the novel, because I really, I don't know, I just felt a lot of people, including myself, could relate to what happens to those of us who don't fit into this box that gets narrower and narrower and narrower in some ways.

Redfern Jon Barrett: 36:34

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, that's experience I had as well, you know, growing up, I was never, and I think that, you know, the more that I kind of dive into my own identity and think about myself, you know, the kind of more, a lot of my experiences fall into place, and kind of make sense. And, you know, as a kid, I really didn't fit in terms of gender, binary gender identity at all, you know, and, you know, I played with toy cars and dolls, you know, and I know that it's, it feels kind of silly to say, because it's never like one thing that's like, based on gender identity, you can't like pinpoint, these are the toys I played with this demonstrates. But it's like a collection of all these different experiences together that, you know, start to make sense, I always had a lot of friends who were boys and principal girls, and didn't really ever fit in with either. And, you know, as a kid, of course, that just hurts. You don't think about like what you might be, you only see what you're not. And, yeah, that was something that I really, really was important to put into the novel, you know, this kind of real. Inability to fit in, and it's something so cool, especially when you're younger, you're told by all the adults around you, you know, you just need to do this just. And essentially, it's always some variant of just that more normal. But our natures aren't something that we can consciously just change. And the best that we can do is essentially put a wall around our true selves, and act out a performance of who we're supposed to be. And I think that the, just the personal and the social impact of that is enormous. I think I genuinely believe that we would have a much, much better world if people didn't feel pressured into doing that, because I really think that that comes out in in 1000s, and 1000s of different ways.

Alex Iantaffi: 38:28

Oh, absolutely. Like, even just thinking, you know, as you were talking, I was thinking about the conversations I was having with sis women, just before and after top surgery, for example. And many sis women felt that gave them permission to talk to me about how they hated their chest, or they would also get rid of it if it was socially or culturally acceptable. And I was like, well, you can actually, like, there's no rule, there's like no rule that you have to like, keep your body as it is, right. Since time immemorial. Humans have looked at body modification as a way to kind of express and align right. But there are those scripts, right, there are the scripts that people feel they have to fall into. You know what, this is what I'm supposed to do if I'm assigned male at birth, and, and this is what I'm supposed to do if I'm assigned female at birth, and this is what being a sis woman means. And this is what being a sis man and then we replicate those in our community. This is what being trans means. This is what being non binary means. Binary now who's trans enough? You know, what, what, who gives you the car that was like, there are no cards, people, literally, I mean, there aren't cards now because you can put an X I guess, on your driver's license here have them similar bit nervous about that level of identification by the stage but you know, like, there's just this feeling that people have to fall into the script. And one of the things I love in the book kind of were talking about a lot of the heavy topic but there was something that was it's funny enough funny at the same time right in the opening when there's the guy and there's this little like script flip around that are sexuality like heterosexual sir fine in the gay Republic as long as you like, you know, and again, I'm paraphrasing but like don't done put in our faces, right, keep your public display display affections to yourself, which is what a lot of experience right? How many of us have heard from family members or straight colleagues, like, I'm fine with queer people, but you have to kiss on the street to the children have to see that look like, like children don't exist also, you know, in terms of preparedness and transmis. Right. So I love that, that flipping the script, but there's also a shadow to flipping the script right in that then, like, sometimes that's also used against by folks and manifested by phobia. And so yeah, I was just curious about that kind of flip Script, Script flip, whichever way you explore the promptings guy.

Redfern Jon Barrett: 41:03

Yeah, I mean, I can't I really, it would have been, I think, very easy to just write a novel in which kind of like homophobia is replaced with Tetra phobia. It's just a wacky world that's upside down, we're strictly for press. And there is, you know, there is this element in the novel of, you know, you kind of have what it means in the state to be a real citizen of this Berlin. And that is to be in a same sex marriage. That's the ideal in this world. So of course, this this exists, but it's, it's something that, yeah, absolutely. applies to by people in particular, and pansexual. People, it's I know, there are scenes in the novel that demonstrate that, you know, then it's also something that, you know, again, I think if you've hung out in gay spaces, for example, you do see that, you know, it's this hole, and thankfully, I hope it's getting better. But you know, I'm so, so tired of who we were, like, Ill vaginas kind of thing as though men can't have vaginas. And like, of course, they can. And also as though like, I'm sorry, but you don't have to be disgusted by something or someone because you don't find them sexually attractive. It's the most immature response. It's like, I don't know, I, I don't find like plump, sexually attractive, but I'm not disgusted by Yeah, and I really, really kind of wanted to explore that element. Because I also think that an unhealthy thing that can often happen when you do receive a lot of abuse socially, is to retreat into this identity and to shun, again, is the binary thinking to shun kind of what is seen as the opposite of this identity. So you see that with this kind of kind of disgust shown, say, for example, monkey went towards, towards women or towards vaginas or towards heterosexuality. And I think that that that has not going to fix that allow you to punch down. So that's particularly with anti bias, anti bias sentiment and anti trans sentiment. And I think that also, this I've seen this happen as well, you know, I've been in touch with a lot of people involved with with women's groups. And in South Wales, there was a particular community that I knew several people from the I don't like using this time a lot because it's abused. But there's a certain amount of misandry to this community, you know, like, there's a real like, male pets aren't allowed on the land, women who don't have their gender tested, have the baby have to leave after like three or four months of pregnancy. It's almost like this kind of mythical idea of like the penis being this kind of source of evil and oppression. And I think that when you get into this kind of level of essentialism, and binary, it really, really has these knock on effects against even more vulnerable people. And I think a lot of the transphobia that is coming from particularly in Britain, is coming from kind of this, this kind of aversion that comes from victims at your own victimization, you know, and I think we all get it, I think there can be this temptation to be like, if I'm going to be anti straight, because I've had so much shit from straight people. But there's all sorts of unintended consequences of it. And honestly, it's never going to hurt the people in positions of horrible social power. It's only ever going to punch down.

Alex Iantaffi: 44:31

Oh, my God, so much. So I have so many thoughts on that one, because it's like, it doesn't hurt just the people who are not in the category. It hurts everybody. You know, as you were talking, I had so many kinds of memories, like little snippets of moments, you know, being at the queer bar, and, you know, I've been my lesbian friends going, Oh, you did you just lend your inhalers to that man. And I was like, Yes, he was having an asthma attack and didn't have his inhaler on him. That's happened to me too. Of course, I gave him my inhaler. Right. And there was like, you know, not only oh my god, somebody with a penis touched your remailer which I was like, what level of purity Are you all immersed in? But also this piece? This terrible piece around? You know, HIV phobia, like, well, what if they're like, What if they're HIV positive? I was like, yeah, what if they are that is not our transmit. I have a lot of close folks. Right. And it's like, so it was so and then on the other and you know, hanging out with a lot of gay men because I used to be in HIV. You research I remember going for coffee. And for some reason, there was one of those few vaginas conversation and I just had like an OBGYN appointment that morning. And I was just done. And I remember just like going, Okay, if you didn't have one, and you're not putting your penis in one, you cannot talk about it right now. You know, the silence descended, right? And that, and I think it's just those moments. And those moments were also painful, because it's like, you don't fit neatly anywhere, right? It's like, I didn't get invited to some of the like, boys dinner, right? When, even when I was like, even when I was trans masculine, because I wasn't quite masculine and after, so it's something suspect. Right? And so I'm with you, it would be easy to retreat. I totally get I don't mean, don't get me wrong. I'm all about 240 and retreating and trans community. But that's not exempt from issues either. Right? So

Redfern Jon Barrett: 46:28

I'm happy to like, I'm not again, it's March, I will be safe spaces. And I think those are really important, you know, but it's like, I think that there's a kind of difference between coming to other people like yourself and sharing your experiences and feeling safe for a while. And like, you know, sort of pushing away. Other people. Yeah, exactly.

Alex Iantaffi: 46:46

And see for whom, you know, in a way, it's like, if we're basing on this biological determinism, we're leaving out a lot of people. And yeah, so even, you know, in spaces that should be safe in airports, they're not safe, because then there's all this kind of, honestly, kind of beaker bigotry and hate, which I understand it's protective, right? It's so much easier to think there is a big bad, I was brought up a second wave feminists, right. So the penis was the enemy. You know, there were people were like, political lesbianism was the purest thing that you could do, right. And also, I've seen people like very painfully women who had done that, and then in their 40s, and 50s come to terms with their sexuality, because they fall in love with a sis male partner, you know, their community falling apart, their support system falling apart, the pain of now, no longer belonging to queer community, you know, in some ways, and it's, it's just heartbreaking. I mean, I get the feeling as humans, we want a big bad, right. There's nothing more satisfying than to read a book or watch a movie where, yes, there's the big bad, you know, the ultimate boss, you know, like in games, but there is no ultimate boss. Right. It's and that what I love about your book, you know what I mean?

Redfern Jon Barrett: 48:07

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's, you know, what I think is important and be topia is, yeah, you're right, that there's not like a big bad and, you know, sometimes, you know, there are characters in propping sky who, and again, to avoid spoilers, I have viewpoints that I would think are much less empathetic than others. But it's something I always tried to go in with understanding where this comes from, and why is this and this particular character, lovey in the book who, honestly, I put a lot of sunlight darker thoughts. You know, but it's, again, it's something that I really, I believe in, in many ways that this person's position can be understood. It's, but it has these kind of very dark manifestations. Yeah, and I think that I Sorry, I had, I was in Brighton recently, and doing reading a novel and I met up with MJ who I think, yeah. I've always, always loved meeting with MJ, and we were talking about, you know, this kind of desire to single out specific people or single out specific, you know, because it's like it's visible, it's like vanquish bubble. But in reality, what we're dealing with it forces and traumas, like manifesting through individual people, but it's not really about those people, you know, like, and that's something else that, you know, I kind of wanted to explore in the book was like, how do these How does trauma wind up influencing kind of oppression? How does trauma generally oppression, you know, and you're probably getting off master tangent?

Alex Iantaffi: 49:51

No, that's yeah, that's a great tangent because I think that it has a lot to do with trauma right? If I think about you know, my own experiences as survivor, the words an appeal in some ways and second wave feminism in like, you know, this is bad because males you know, and sis males that meant at the time are perpetrators and aggressors, but there was a part of me that could never fully buy into that probably because of my own trans identity, right, even though I was still finding my own voice to that and also because I was never into those extremes. There was a part of me that always resisted this dichotomy. So it felt to felt to narrow it felt too limiting, right. And I also understand, like, have a lot of compassion. Question for Oh, I see where you're at as you're hurting as you're trying to keep yourself safe. By in keeping yourself safe. You're actually now inflicting pain and, and lateral violence and trauma potentially on other people. Right. And that's kind of in a way our trauma perpetuates if we're not careful, you know, while I've been a victim and those people over there the perpetrators, so there is nothing, right that I could say or do that is bad enough. But But actually, there is, right? Because not, you know, it's kind of this confusing, almost the micro with the macro, right? It's like not, not any one category can be seen as evil, because that takes away our humanity is dehumanizing.

Redfern Jon Barrett: 51:21

Absolutely, I think there's a really, really good good point that you made with that, like with kind of having this idea that evil is elsewhere. And I was in my teenage years, I was part of a homophobic Christian evangelical movement, which was, had its own breed of trauma. And one thing that I noticed among that community was, the evil was always somewhere else, that evil was coming from Satan, from the bad people from the people in society who are ungodly. And when you do that, and I think that this, the same mentality can exist if you're not careful when you are part of a marginalized group, and you're like, well, the evil is men are evil is straight people. And there are critiques of men and strictly. But it's what happens, I think, when you do that, is you erase the idea of your own capacity for evil? Yeah, exactly. You know, like, it reminds me of this kind of this community that used to be part of because like, they really, really would, you can do kind of awful things, you can treat people terribly, and you won't really ever question yourself, because you err on the side of good, and you're not part of the evil. And I think that that can lead to some of like humanity's most destructive impulses. And I also think that that's, that can be a problem tying it back to sci fi genres, that can be a problem with utopian thinking, you know, it creates this idea that, that evil is something else that it can be eradicated, that it's not something that we always have to question ourselves about. You know, it's, and I think we've seen like, throughout history as well, this idea that, like, if we take, like a very, very fixed idea of class, for example, you know, there can be this idea that if we just, if we just take everything away from the capitalist class, then you know, that evil will be fixed. And we'll have like a utopia. And, you know, it's I'm not, I'm not saying it's a great sense of cuts of capitalism, but like, the problem with that kind of mentality is that it then allows for atrocity, you know, and this is a much bigger scale than say, like, you know, gay or lesbian communities. But we always, always have to be able to look for the evil within ourselves, you know, for to actually watch out for, well, what is, you know, because we will get afraid, we will get scared, we will get angry. And we all have the capacity to do terrible things, while in those frames of mind.

Alex Iantaffi: 53:52

Absolutely. And I think that part of the healing from trauma for me is kind of claiming agency and power and coming to terms with the fact that actually any human, including ourselves had the capacity to hurt other people, you know, both intentionally and unintentionally. And actually we do, and what the best we can hope for is not to do it intentionally. And the best we can hope for is some when we do and intentionally is not too terrible, and that there is the possibility for repair. Right? And the love, like how sci fi is starting to explore that, I think, in a lot of ways, right, that I think there are lots of wonderful writers that explored that much more nuanced, right, from Octavia Butler to the much more kind of dominant culture, Doctor Who, right, there are so many moments specially in the latest kind of season, where in the one before where there could be, you know, the doctor could turn towards destruction of the enemy, but cannot because that's not who she is, right? And so it's just like this, this very human struggle, right? Like this very human struggle of like, is, when is it okay to hurt somebody else? When you say, okay to obliterate somebody else, right? When is it? Okay, like all those big existential questions that get explored in speculative fiction, which are very much also in your book, and that I think that's what I love about is that there are very existential themes in a way that you explore.

Redfern Jon Barrett: 55:24

Yeah, it's, I mean, it's the kind of hobby avoided.

Alex Iantaffi: 55:28

You really can't avoid existential themes. That's fair. That is it I mean, some people sometimes do, but really, it's pretty hard to do to avoid existential themes. Yeah.

Redfern Jon Barrett: 55:42

And I think, you know, I think that a lot of what we've been talking about, you know, these, they're not things that are limited to any one group, and again, you know, was propping sky. Yeah, it's a novel about the world's first gay lesbian staid. But more than that, it's a novel about trauma. It's a novel about, you know, oppression, it's a novel about group identity. And, you know, those are things that I think that all of us in different ways can relate to, you know, it's not something that is limited to LGBTQ groups, by all means, I think that these are, these are very, very human things.

Alex Iantaffi: 56:16

Absolutely. So I feel like I could have this conversation forever, as I do with pretty much all of my guests, but I want to be respectful of your time. The last thing I want to talk about is actually pride. And now it's handled in proud pins sky, because we are coming into Pride Month. And so it seems very seasonally appropriate. To kind of talk a little about what's Pride Month, like in the gay Republic, you know, in an LGBTQ plus state? Well, one meaning best pride I have in this kind of alternative, kind of queer history timeline, let's call it

Redfern Jon Barrett: 56:54

Well, I mean, that's the thing is because it's, you know, the world's first game has been stay, you know, pride and the celebration of pride, almost, because it's also like, kind of a national holiday, you know, it's kind of like, the Fourth of July of this K State. And so, you know, it's something that within the novel is, you know, a huge amount of festivities decorations, you know, it's kind of the biggest holiday of the year, in the Merlin novel. And, yeah, that's, you know, it's, I've always had a kind of very, very mixed relationship with pride myself. So I was part of a group that helped establish Swansea is first its city in South Wales. First gay pride. LGBTQ pride, it was we did consciously into two groups. It didn't want to get remembered as that because they wound up being a commercial. I came along a couple years later, that advertised itself as the first but we had like our own, like, much less well funded. And yeah, I, I went to pride in Cardiff and then moving to Berlin and Berlin, has multiple. And this the big mainstream commercial pride, which, you know, I honestly have never actually gone because I've just never really connected with with the kind of mainstream pride events, I think they're important, I think that people should really go and enjoy themselves, I really have a not against this kind of mainstream prides, but I just never really felt the kind of energy of them somehow there was a kind of queer pride that that used to take place in the city. But then, you know, kind of vitriol, left wing infighting destroyed it, but that was a beautiful event that used to take place in my neighborhood. And it would be you know, 1000s of queer people and just beautiful atmosphere, but also included everyone you know, so it wasn't very commercial. That's kind of been replaced in Berlin with the Dyke March, which is this very, very queer inclusive, sort of lesbian queer March, which I went on last year includes people of all genders so it's really really lovely event. So yeah, I didn't know there can be so many things that are prior there's my point in so many different ways of doing it, you can have the kind of like, corporate sponsored, very flashy, very big pride, you can have the kind of DIY, you know, sort of put on your best dressing up clothes, and like, all just come together and just have a messy time. And everything in between. and In the novel, you know, it's, it's, even though it's kind of the state function, I still kind of wanted to serve this idea that like, pride isn't one thing that there's like all of these like 1000s and 1000s of different prides like happening around this time, just like in our world.

Alex Iantaffi: 59:44

I love that because in a way that that corporate pride, and I could be wrong, but it feels it's almost replaced by this kind of nationalist pride, right in the book because like you said, it is like the Fourth of July kind of celebration for the gay and lesbian Republic. And so yeah, I love what you talked about that. It is so many things and in a way, it's an experience of connection and celebration, but what happens when we cannot connect and celebrate for whatever reason, right? And so how do we then find new ways to connect and celebrate? You know, and, and that that process in a way, it's never ending, right? Because also things transform. And again, I could keep talking about this, but I'm gonna be respectful of your time and the listeners time and so I'm gonna ask you the last question that I always ask, which is, is there anything that I have not asked you about, that you are really hoping to talk about or to make sure you communicate it to the listeners and viewers have gender stories?

Redfern Jon Barrett: 1:00:48

I mean, we've covered a lot. There. I genuinely, I've just enjoyed this conversation so much that I can't think of I'm sorry, probably like, five minutes after we sign off or something. Yeah, I, again, I really can't hear anyway, I think this has been a really, really great and wider discussion. I've really enjoyed it.

Alex Iantaffi: 1:01:11

Yeah, it was really fun and other men to put you on the spot. I always just want to make sure that if there is anything, you know, you'll get to communicate it to folks. And if people want to find out more about you and your work and want to get your book because now they're all excited to read about this book, where could they find out more about you? Or follow you on social media or get the book from?

Redfern Jon Barrett: 1:01:34

So there's my website, which is kind of simple thing. And it has a very short URL, it's read john.com. So RBD jln.com I on Macedon at Redfin. I'm in the main instance, the Macedon social. And yeah, that my publisher is by white sample press, which is an imprint of Bywater books, so you can get funding on their website. Oh, and there was one thing I mentioned, a friend of mine made this incredible trailer for the novel that like I absolutely love and couldn't be happier with. And if you just go into Google into YouTube, and just search pro pink sky, the trailer will come up and like, I love that trailer. Really, really happy with it. It's so cinematic and exciting. And yeah, so I mean, if all else fails, like just Googling propping Skype. Yeah,

Alex Iantaffi: 1:02:35

now I have to go find that trailer and I will connect it in the description. Oh, yeah. Video trailers for books are awesome. You know, I've been thinking about making one and then it feels too complicated. But I'm excited now to watch the video trailer. Well, thank you so much. This has been such a wonderful conversations and listeners and now viewers of gender stories. If you're watching us on YouTube, please get hold of proud pink sky, especially if you love speculative fiction. But even if you have never read speculative fiction, give it a go. Because there is just so much goodness, as you heard so many themes. Exactly. Show that beautiful cover again. Absolutely. I would show it If I could but I only read the PDF. So it is a beautiful cover. You know that's nice, like those purples that ask yours love. And so yeah, read proud pink sky and watch out for more on red fence work. And thank you so much for spending time with us today. This was great. Until next time,