Greedy: Notes from a Bisexual Who Wants Too Much with Jen Winston

Jen Winston (she/they) is a writer, creative director, and bisexual based in Brooklyn. Their work bridges the intersection of sex, politics, and technology, and has been featured in The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, CNN, and more. Jen is passionate about unlearning and creating work that helps others do the same. Her newsletter, The Bi Monthly, is dedicated to exploring bi issues and experiences--it comes out every month, much like Jen herself. Follow Jen on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok (please, she's begging you): @Jenerous.

https://bookshop.org/p/books/greedy-notes-from-a-bisexual-who-wants-too-much-jen-winston/16221521?ean=9781982179175

Transcript

Musical Intro: 0:35

There's a whole lotta things I want to tell you about. Adventures dangerous and queer. Some you could guess and some I've only hinted at, so please lend me your ear.

Narrator: 1:00

Everyone has a relationship with gender. What's your story? Hello and welcome to Gender stories with your host, Dr. Alex Iantaffi.

Alex Iantaffi: 1:07

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Gender Stories. I'm delighted to be here with Jen Winston. They're bisexual writer, creative and creative director. Jen runs a monthly newsletter called The BI monthly and their

first essay collection, Greedy: 1:20

Notes from a Bisexual Who Wants Too much, just came out on October 5, right? It's so exciting. And I'm interviewing.... And I'm so excited to be interviewing Jen, like two days after a book came out. Jen's work for just the intersections of sex, politics and technology, and has been featured by The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, CNN, and even more outlets. Jen is passionate about unlearning and creating work that helps others do the same. She lives in Brooklyn with her partner, dogs and her iPhone. I love that you mentioned your iPhone, because I also have some attachment to it.

Jen Winston: 2:01

I know, it's something I'm working on. It's really something I'm working through. It's something my partner has been very patient with me throughout the course of writing this book, because I wrote this whole book in less than a year. And it's like, which is like something I would not wish on my worst own worst enemy. That timeline. Like I was so excited. I thought that would be a good idea. But we wanted to get the book out on by visibility day. And that was just like that was not worth what, what it did to my life. But I'm really happy it's done. But I would all that is to say that my iPhone is is like a tier on my hierarchy of needs right now, which I don't want it to be there.

Alex Iantaffi: 2:46

No, I understand that. I feel like you know, my iPhone is like in that intimate circle of important relationships.

Jen Winston: 2:53

Uh huh, I agree.

Alex Iantaffi: 2:53

So I thought that that was lovely, you know?

Jen Winston: 2:58

Yes.

Alex Iantaffi: 2:59

Well, it's so nice to have you here on Gender Stories. And I so appreciate you making the time. And I'm so excited to talk about your book. Why don't we start from there? Yeah,

Jen Winston: 3:09

Yeah, sorry. Sorry. Before we get into it, I just want to say I'm so excited to be here because right when I got the book deal in the beginning, and when I started questioning my gender identity, like, my partner bought me your book Life Is Binary. And I was like, so moved by it. And I learned so much from it. And I was also really struck by, there were a few things I was really struck by, that I'll probably just work in throughout this conversation. But I, I was especially struck by the fact that the sexuality chapter is the first chapter, because I feel like that's kind of how bisexuality has been for me in my life. Like, it is now a, a lens and a way of looking at the world that is in my toolkit, and allows me to see everything as less binary. So that really resonated with me and just thank you.

Alex Iantaffi: 4:09

Yeah, you're so welcome. I'm so I'm always so excited. You know, when you write you can just just writing in a vacuum, right? You know, there's gonna be so it's always so amazing when readers are like they really spoke to me are so important to me. So anyway, it was very intentional that Meg-John and I started with sexuality.

Jen Winston: 4:28

I figured and I didn't, I don't think I understood your intention, honestly, until a few months later, when I was sort of like, oh, like, my bisexuality really informed my ability to look at the world differently. And then I kind of like, thought back on that. And I was like, oh, that was amazing.

Alex Iantaffi: 4:45

That's great. And that feel that, you know, for me, my bisexuality really opened up the gender box and my gender exploration 20 years ago. I feel old when I say that's the kind of things but so I think that leading with that did feel really important. And talking about books. You know, you've wrote a memoir and I'm always when people write a memoir, one of the things I'm always curious about is what motivated you write? Because it can feel so intimidating to write about your own life and people you know, who have been in your life. So tell me a little bit more about the motivation for your book.

Jen Winston: 5:24

Yeah, well, it definitely has been intimidating. I've had like a few people who are like mentioned in the book kind of like, text me and be like I can't wait to read it. And then like, maybe you shouldn't read it. Like I changed their names if they shouldn't read it, but and we did the whole thing with the legal team. That's like helping me avoid any potential disasters. But, um, you know, I tried, I've tried my whole life to write things other than memoir and like, unfortunately, that's the only thing that I that I enjoy writing. I told someone the other day because I fear I am an essayist forever and I would love to be a novelist. Like, if somebody called my book a novel the other day thinking that they thought they said they thought the term novel encompass memoir. I'm not sure it does, but I was like, I guess I'll take it because like, I would love to be a novelist because I think there's something so egotistical about memoir also, it's like, why do people care about my story? And like, I'm someone with a ton of privilege. I'm a white. I mean, well, cis, femme presenting a, like non disabled, relatively thin person, you know, I am, I walk through the world with tons of privilege. And then I think also to like write a memoir that's about bisexuality, which very few of them exists that are so overt. And it was very important to me to be very overt about it. But to do that, I was like, really nervous that this book would get held up as like, the book, you know, like, for like, the bisexual book, which like it kind of, I guess it kind of is like for October 2021 which is good, please buy it. But I yeah, I was really nervous about that. Like, especially because something I encountered while writing it. Like I knew I wanted to bring it a bunch of statistics and like, earlier drafts of the book actually were much more stat heavy and like, much more I guess, similar in tone to to your book, or to Life Is Binary, it was more educational. But it wasn't really resonating with some of my early readers. And so I was like, you know what, this is a memoir. I'm not like, I didn't go to college for gender studies. Everything I've learned, I've learned just like, on my own, I'm not trying to be an educator. I'm trying to be a memoirist, I guess. And so I ended up taking a lot of that stuff out but one thing I did find that I already like loosely knew, but it really solidified it for me when I started to do research is that there's so little research about different intersections of bisexuality, it's like, I mean, there's already so little research about it, in general. But especially across different intersections, like I kept trying to find information about like race and bisexuality, and I just like, there's just like nothing. And I mean, also, like non binary bisexual people are just like, completely erased by almost all of the research, which includes, now it includes me. Now when I'm like out, it includes I guess, you because you and my partner, you know, and and I think another reason I was so driven to write this book about, like bisexuality is because the binary stigma of bisexuality really bothered me and put off my coming out for quite a while, because I was like, I something I didn't, I didn't want to, like claim a word that could potentially discount a group of people's identity. And I was like, being so you know, sensitive about it. And it's like, yeah, I I wanted to make sure I wanted to claim bisexuality, and to make it very clear that it is not a binary term. And that is not necessarily like, at odds with pansexuality or queerness, in general. So I wanted to like kind of correct some of the stuff I see happening in the BI community. And I say that in quotes, because I don't know that there really is that much of a bi. I mean, it's very small. The Internet, the body, internet, I see so many people being like, I'm attracted to men and women, and I'm like, Oh, stop, like your whole, like, that's not how I see my bisexuality and it really sucks when other bi people are viewing their sexuality that way, because I'm like, we all got to, you know, we gotta do better, but it's like, that stigmatizes bisexuality in this way that hurts all bi people. So that was really passionate, something I was really passionate about when writing it. So hope that comes through.

Alex Iantaffi: 10:19

Oh, absolutely. And I think you know, actually, I was gonna one of the questions or things I wanted to talk to you about was, you know, all those myths about bisexuality and that was one of them right that bisexuality reinforces the binary that's, that's one of my pet peeves when people say that. You know, as a trans non binary person where I feel actually that bisexual community in the UK, which is where I first kind of came out as bisexual was really where the gender box broke wide open for me and then there was so many trans and non binary people within bi communities across the globe. And it really upsets me when people say what bi means two so reinforces the binary and I was like... Straight or gay is no less binary, you know, in our world... So, yes, it's one of my pet peeves.

Jen Winston: 11:08

And I mean, it really, it really does hurt me, because I feel like I think I even read some stat the other day that there's like, a very large number of a percentage of trans people are bisexual. And it's like, it's just very dismissive. And then honestly,

Alex Iantaffi: 11:20

Absolutely. the worst thing I think, is when people try to even say that bisexuality is binary, and they tried to make a distinction between like, cis, bisexual people and trans bisexual, like men and women specifically. I'm like, what, like, that was ever a conversation. And I actually read that that was where the term pansexual kind of... one of the reasons that it was sort of like, brought about was from that original, like, transphobic idea of like, you know, separating cis men and, and trans men and cis women and trans women. So it's just interesting, because pan is seen as kind of like, the right one, you know, by... Yeah.

Jen Winston: 12:10

And it just never the word never, like, hit me, right. And I'm, I couldn't put my finger on it and I think the whole conversation about bisexuality is really interesting. Now, I'm just rambling.

Alex Iantaffi: 12:25

That's ok ramble away.

Jen Winston: 12:26

Okay. Um, it's, it's really interesting, because in your book talks about this, it brings like the idea of labels into into view in a way that, like, that makes them be questioned. Because there's, like, when I first started telling people I was bi, you know, there's this like, well, I'm queer, like, I don't need a label and like, looked down upon you for needing a label, but the label can like really help you know who you are. And I think in my book, I call it like an Oh Shit handle, like the thing you grab on to and a car that helps you know, that that your steady when, when things get rough. But yeah, I really appreciated that your book talked about all those different experiences, and like some people who like labels, and some people who don't, and that is being totally fine, but I wanted to make sure I affirmed other people who, like need the label bi because I certainly did.

Alex Iantaffi: 13:29

Absolutely. I did, too and I'm much, much more resonate with the label of bisexual and I've had people over the years, but why don't you call yourself pansexual. And you're trans, it makes more sense. And I was like, because I'm not pansexual. For me, pansexual is attracted to people of all genders or regardless of gender. Whereas bisexuality is attracted to like more than one gender. And for me, like, I am attracted to masculinity, gender plays a part in my attraction and desire and you know what I mean? It's like, so that's different than pansexual for me, you know?

Jen Winston: 14:02

Yeah.

Alex Iantaffi: 14:03

Why are you trying to give me a label?

Jen Winston: 14:04

I'm so happy to hear you break it down that exact way because that's been the exact thing that happened for me, like gender is so formative in my attraction to people like I'm interested in the way they play with gender and like, think about gender, and like, gender is my favorite topic in the world. So like I hope that people are, you know, I'm attracted to people who are interested in gender. Like it's very, it's like, a very important part of my attraction. And for me, the definition of pansexual or the way that I received the word doesn't include that. Like, it's almost like more genderless which there's like beauty in that for sure. But yeah, there's a Jacob Tobiah quote, I love...

Alex Iantaffi: 14:49

Yes.

Jen Winston: 14:50

Where they said that like when they envision a future, like a future, in a positive future around gender like they don't envision everyone in like gray tracksuits like walking around, you know, looking identical, like, the apple 1984 ad, like, they envision like people playing with gender and experimenting and it being a self expression and a beautiful thing, and I think that's like that, for me the word bisexual, like, is it connotes that somehow? I don't know.

Alex Iantaffi: 15:21

Yeah, I feel the same honestly. And also, I love folks who identify as pansexual and that term speaks to them and, and you know, ultimately, you know, the Bi and pan fluid community we have a lot in common And then it. And it's also really interesting that often were so invisible, right? In some ways Bi and pan fluid, folks are kind of deal one of the largest chunks in the LGBT community. But often, we're not always participating in queer communities because biphobia. And I have so many stories about that, which I'm sure you do, too. And on this kind of harmful myths about bisexuality, and I love that your book like is straight up, uses the word that's often used to talk about bisexual people, which is greedy, right? You know, I don't think there's a bi person who's never heard like, Oh, you want your cake and eat it, eat it, you have to choose why you're selling the fence. You're so greedy and I love that the title of your memoir is Greedy Notes From A Bisexual Who Wants Too Much. So tell me about that title came about and if you've had similar experience of that, in that greedy words from an someone and not not such a nice way as a bi person?

Jen Winston: 16:32

Yeah, you know, I actually haven't. And I like almost wish I had because it would be like a great opening anecdote of the of the memoir but I thought a lot about about the title. And I think that ingredient, I mean, it's the most fun one to reclaim. And I actually hit a lot of hurdles throughout the publishing process because a lot of people mainly people who I hadn't talked to directly, like, people who just like saw the title in an email, and were like, approving it, you know, they were like, this is so negative. And it was before we'd found that subtitle. So I think the subtitle kind of made it empowering. But originally, it was like greedy essays from a bisexual, and there wasn't this element of like, I'm reclaiming it, like, it's something that I want but that even just communicating that to people was an uphill battle that it was reclaiming. And I know I quote them throughout my book. But the work of Sherry Eisner really really helped me understand bisexuality as like bisexual myths as being the the myths themselves as not being bad, like them being indications of bigger issues in our culture and I think like if I couldn't name the book anything and like aesthetic language value didn't matter, I would have named it Confused. Because to me, to me, that's been the most amazing part of bisexuality to reclaim is by confusion, and Shiri calls bisexual confusion, a destabilizing.... Oh, how am I missing this quote? It's like my favorite quote. A destabilizing act of social change. Maybe? But yeah, it's it's such a powerful quote, I just undermined it. Then I actually, okay, yeah. But but it's such a powerful quote, as is all shares work. And that that, for me, was the reading that I was like, Oh, my God, I'm That's wonderful. And yes, I love Sherry's work. They're such proud to be bi. Like, it means questioning everything and it means undermining these existing systems. And it means not subscribing to boxes, and it's literally everything that I like, stand for, but and then and then my whole life, like just made sense. Like, I was like, Oh, my God, I was actually writing my book proposal and rereading some of Sherry's work, and because I knew I wanted to feature one of their quotes in my proposal. And like, heavily in my book, and I, I was I was reading and I read the destabilizing act of social change line, and I was like, Oh, my God, like, I had no idea how right this this lens was for me in terms of writing a memoir, like, in and just for my whole life, and a lot of people have asked me if it was hard to write a whole book around like with bisexuality is the whole like, stick. But it really wasn't. Because it's so broad and really what it what it refers to is like unlearning, and challenging binaries, and asking questions and looking at your past and, and, you know, making sure that you're comfortable with the track you're on and like, confirming, checking in with yourself, seeing if you are where you want to be and so that was really It made me fall more in love with bisexuality as I was writing. So that was fun. a powerful writer and community organizer and activist. And so I'm really, really glad that you mentioned that kind of destabilizing, you know, binaries and destabilizing as an act of social change that they talk about because it's so important and I feel like that, that is throughout right? All this unlearning and this challenging is, is kind of woven throughout the book and I wonder if there are specific kind of, you know, moments in the book or essays in the book, that really speak to that the destabilizing of why you learn and kind of unlearning particular things to do with your sexuality and/or your gender? Hmm, I think so one of my favorite essays in the book, and I'm not sure I like fully nail. I'm not sure I fully nailed it from an artistic perspective, but you can be the judge of that. Um, it's called Out Of The Woods and it's basically about, I really wanted to, I want to just start this section that where it's the third section, it's called, I want to be queer enough, because each of the sections are like, I want blank, because I'm greedy, etc. But it I wanted to make sure I started that section, like acknowledging my privilege as a white queer person, among other things. And so I and I was thinking about,

Alex Iantaffi: 21:35

Well and I love that you're talking about that. like, what that means to me and like, what, what queerness means, and I, of course, turn to the work of Jose Esteban Munoz And the you have the section, you know, I want to be queer Cruising Utopia, which was also really like groundbreaking for me, especially in terms of thinking of, of queerness, like, in a more abstract, collective way. And I, I was realizing, enough because I feel there is not a bi person I've met that like, the sheer act of writing a memoir is like, so individualistic, right? And so, I wanted to kind of, but like, I had to go through my individual journey in order to, like, find doesn't have that moment of like, am I queer enough? Is that work and understand it and understand, like, the idea of collective liberation. And so that essay, attempts to talk there space for me within the queer community as a bisexual about, about, like, what queer liberation is, and then questionthat and then juxtapose that with my personal the first time that I went to a lesbian bar and felt uncomfortable. And, person, right? I feel that's something that a lot of bi folks you know, it was like a white lesbian bar. Like, it wasn't like, I mean, I guess it wasn't overly that. But when I went there, it was like a very white cis space. And I felt so face. And I think that brings up also this interesting way in uncomfortable, even though I had all this privilege. And I just, like, hadn't realized my own queerness yet. And then like, which sometimes, sis white folks use queer to really mean gay and once I had, and once I like, was able to, it just allowed me to participate in something so much bigger. And the essay ends talking about Brooklyn liberation, which is a beautiful lesbian rather than queer. You know, I remember once I was movement. It's a beautiful, like, I don't want to say protest, because it's so much more than that but it's basically like a an event where the happening, I guess, where singing in an LGBT choir, you know, and I was like, yeah, I'm it's, they just have their second one this year, but it's organized by a bunch of queer organizers in New York. And it's centered around trans issues and standing up for centering the queer. And then, you know, I turned up to the concert a few trans community, specifically the trans community of color and last year that the focus was on black trans lives. This year, the focus was on trans kids and like, both of those kind of like months later with one of my partner was a cis man and people in response to current events, and like, current cultural needs, but it's such a powerful space. And I like truly being were like, 'I thought you said you were queer'. I said, 'yes, there made me feel connected to something in a way that my individual struggle with bisexuality never did. So I think that I'm really grateful to have unlocked access to I'm bisexual'. And and I was like, so you're not only communities like that. And you know, even like conversations like this one with you like, it means so much to be able to just like this, this book, I'm so glad that my I'm so glad my book misreading my gender, but you also have this weird exists because it helps me get in the door to talk to people like you, which is like, so cool. So yeah. expectations of what my partners would look like because of my queerness right? It's that kind of bierasure and you know, having come out as bi and in lesbian community once upon a time. Also facing all that biphobia and suspicion by women in particular, I think there's a lot of suspicion and by men, of course, also go for their own thing and then being non binary and trans. I feel like I've gone through many iterations of biphobia at this point.

Jen Winston: 25:52

Oh, wow. Yeah, you, you should definitely write a memoir. Um, but yeah, it is, it is so interesting, the way that the biphobia manifests differently, like by gender. And I think Sherry's work also does a great job of calling attention to like the, the way that patriarchy like intersects with all of it like, I mean, there's this this idea is like now all over the internet because of a TikTok or something. But the idea that like when a bisexual woman, when a woman comes out as bisexual people think that she's going through a phase. And when a man comes out as bisexual people think that he's actually gay. And what that says is that everyone should be attracted to men. So it's ultimately like, a patriarchal idea. Of course, even that like state that viral statement, like, obviously dismisses by non binary bisexuals, or like anyone else outside of the gender binary, but yeah, it's... I think that that that was really interesting to me. When I wrote this book, I did not expect me... I did not expect to talk about gender so much in it, but I realized how much it had shaped my own experience and had shaped my relationship to my bisexuality specifically with like, the question of like, like, is it fetishization? Or like, is it bisexuality? Like, am I just hooking up with this girl because that guy likes it? Or am I queer? And that just confused me for forever. Like, I mean that that was something that made me... there's the you talked about this in your book, but the distinction between bisexuality as a behavior and an identity. And that was a really important one for me to realize, like, oh, this this is like bisexuality as a behavior as portrayed by the media. But I am bisexual as an individual and yeah...

Alex Iantaffi: 28:03

Absolutely. I love that you're talking about.... I feel like you're anticipating all my questions and I love it because I was gonna talk about gender. I do feel that there is a lot of kind of talking about gender in the book and, and in a way that kind of bisexuality does bring up gender because it also unsettles that idea of gender. We're supposed to be who we are supposed to be where we're supposed to be attracted to, the roles that we're supposed to play, kind of in relationships and all of that.

Jen Winston: 28:32

I like, loving the way you you just said that. Unsettled is such a cool active verb active like I'm, I'm, I'm still like, since I wrote this book so recently, I'm still like, that's a great verb. But I think that's like so beautifully said, yeah, it and that's why people fear it and why they project all of these stigmas onto it like the it's always really interesting to me when people are like, my bi spouse is going to cheat on me. It's like, okay, like...

Alex Iantaffi: 29:06

Straight people cheat all the time.

Jen Winston: 29:08

Oh, yeah. 80% of bisexual women are in monogamous relationships.

Alex Iantaffi: 29:14

Yes.

Jen Winston: 29:15

Which is, which actually blew my mind. But yeah, I think that it's like your issue is not with bisexuality, it's with monogamy. And yeah, Sherry also says that, like bisexuality is often positioned as like a scapegoat for these systems. And I love that as well. But sorry, I cut you off to like, think about what you said.

Alex Iantaffi: 29:36

I'm loving this back and forth, so don't worry about cutting me off at all. No, I mean, that's what I wanted to talk about. Gender is such a

Jen Winston: 29:41

Ok. part in the journey of, you know, discovering and accepting and embracing and all whichever verb we want to use around bisexuality, but also find it plays such a role in dating while bisexual, you know, I've gone from dating as a bisexual femme, basically, to dating as a more trans masculine kind of non binary person and definitely the so called erotic capital. You know, change right when I was perceived as a bi femme it was like being bisexual is cool. Also, you might encounter some biphobia by lesbians, but at the same time, you know, there is almost this kind of acceptance in the broader social contexts of kind of, by femme bisexuality kind of expressions, but but it also brings up... Which you kind of lose them in some ways when you present as more masculine. But I'm just really curious about kind of your experiences with dating while bisexual, and also in terms of how your gender is perceived, right? Yeah, while, dating as bisexual. Does that make sense? Well, yes, yes.

Alex Iantaffi: 30:58

Sorry it was a lot of words.

Jen Winston: 31:00

I mean, it's interesting, because I will no, I think it doesn't make sense. Like, my partner and I talked about, like, someday being like opening up our relationship and being non monogamous. But I can't I mean, I'm not interested in that right now. So that probably informs why I can't really think about this, but I can't imagine myself on a date with a straight man. Like, I literally can't imagine it, because I'm like, what will we talk about? Because I don't, I mean, it's not that I'm not like, attracted to straight men like I still am. That's, you know, part of I mean, I would say like, of, of men, I am most attracted to bisexual men, like, I'm just most attracted to queer people. And I think it took me a really long time, because of the stereotypical like gender presentation of myself and of a lot of my friends. It took me a long time to like, realize that I like had built an amazing group of queer friends, like, almost all my friends are queer, like, almost all of the people I hang out with are like gay men. I like now all my now that I'm in a relationship with someone who has been out as a queer person for much longer than me, are, like, everyone we hang out with is queer. And it's not like a prerequisite. It's just how it happens. But it never happened at like, you know, the bisexual bar, because that's not really a thing. And so it was really, that felt really challenging. But apparently, there is a bisexual bar in New York, and I'm going there tomorrow to celebrate my book launch. So...

Alex Iantaffi: 32:44

Yay!

Jen Winston: 32:45

It's called mood ring. But yeah, it's a great bar. I didn't know it was bisexual until now but I think my partner when we, when we went on our, like, first date or early, early date, my partner was like, Oh, you're gonna love me, because I'm basically a gay man, but I'm attracted to you. And I was like, well, I think that is the gender that I'm attracted to. And I mean, my partner identifies as bisexual, but that's like, how they felt described. And I think, like that, that really, like felt great. And I mean, kinda is our dynamic to this day. But I think I was also Oh, I have a, I have a more succinct answer to your question now.

Alex Iantaffi: 33:35

It doesn't have to be succint, go for it.

Jen Winston: 33:37

I shouldn't over promise but when I was going on dates with women, it was really, like, complicated for me to make sense of when we were both femme presenting. And yes, I think it's really interesting, the way that that informs like a dynamic because I think I am, like, I don't think my gender presentation is ever going to like, like, I don't think I'm ever going to present masculine, but like, in terms of like, stereotypical masculine qualities, like I have many, and my energy is slightly more masculine. And I think it's like, I didn't know how to sit with that in when I was on a date with like, a femme woman. Because also, I didn't really know what I was attracted to, like, somebody asked me what my type was, and I was like, I have no idea like, I had just been like curbing these desires for so long. I haven't even allowed myself to like, question it and then there there is I read a bit about this, like, often when femme presenting people are, like, attracted to more masculine people. There's this like, dialog that comes up of like, oh, well, why don't you just be with a man and obviously, that's just or like, are you just straight and I think I thought that that would cancel out. Like I think I thought if I wasn't attracted to femme women, I wouldn't be bisexual enough. And I like I am attracted to femme women. But I I just didn't all of that swirling through my brain without the words for it. Like I couldn't be like fun and flirty. Like at the bar, you know, I was just so so terrible. There's a date thats not even in the book with someone we we like went to a really nice restaurant. It was a first date, I was super excited. And then I literally talked, they asked me, they were like, oh, so like, they like called me a lesbian at some point and I was like, I am bisexual. And then I literally talked the whole time about like, 'maybe I am maybe I'm not, maybe I am'. Oh, no. And like, at the end of the date, that was like, that was really fun. Let's do it again. And the person was, like, I'm not sure that I had as great of a time as you and they, they, like, were very kind about it when I when I like texted them for a next date. But you know, if that's us, and I think I was so in my head, it felt amazing to just be out of my head on a date. Um, but it was like, obviously not enjoyable for the, for my suitor. Yeah.

Alex Iantaffi: 36:26

But it makes sense to me that, like, I feel that that's part of the unsettling right when you're bisexual. It's like, whichever gender you were kind of you are and your dating seems to influence so many things, right? I love when I was kind of, you know, within lesbian community was fine if I was dating women, but then the minute I started dating a cis man, it was like this. I lost, you know, 90% of my friends. And then I remember close friends kind of refusing to go to like a theater performance we had planned to go together, because I disclosed there was starting to date this cis dude. And then they were like, Ah, now you can go and cry about how terrible it is to be bisexual and I was like, yes because...

Jen Winston: 37:12

Oh my god... Yeah.

Alex Iantaffi: 37:12

It is I was like, you were just like, so mean, right? To me about that. And it's been so interesting to have this trajectory, you know, and, and then how confusing it can be And then that's kind of yeah... for femmes to date femmes even like, are we flirting, or are we not flirting? What is happening here?

Jen Winston: 37:31

Well, well, I just I want to quote a part or like reference, a part from your book that I really love also is like, the binary. I mean, I love how you like, call it all these binaries that you might not even see as binaries, like, the difference between partners and, and friends. And, like, that one is so interesting, in terms of like, queerness, because like there will be, you know, there was literally a pandemic, I lost my sex drive, like, for several months. As did like millions of people across the world. And it like, I, my partner, and I like at times we would be like, are we like becoming friends? What's happening, but like, if it had been a, I mean, we're not. Everything has returned, we're fine. Even though we would still be fine, even bad. But um, but if we were in like a typical cis hetero relationship, like partnership that would never would never have that question. You would you would question it the other way. Like, if you were friends, and you were like living together, you'd be like, oh, maybe we should hook up. Because it's like, the trajectory that the world tells you to follow. But absolutely, but it's really awful to hear all that biphobia, but I'm so sorry that that happened. Because it really like, I mean, obviously, you've triumphed and turned it into like, amazing like work on on gender and sexuality, psychology, but it really I do think that like, the overt biphobia, is probably worse from the queer community. Especially like, as a as a femme person, the, like, men would always be like, cool, like, that's all that's hot. Like, I don't think any any of them ever thought that they would like lose me to that side or something, you know, it was non threatening, in a way and yeah, but I think I was talking to some of my partner's friends who all identify as lesbians. I was talking to, like, three lesbians. And they were like, we it was like, late in the night, and we were like, kind of drunk and they were like, coming clean with me. And they were like, I never used to date a bi person. Like, it's really like something that I was, like, taught not to do because it would like, you know, be the threatening to the relationship and it's just it's such a bummer because so much of that is just patriarchy, and not bisexuality and, and even like when there are like the instances of the... Like, I guess I'm trying to avoid the the term but like the street person who like a lesbian hooks up with quote, unquote, like even when that does happen, like some some of that is like internalized by phobia for the person who is not like open to being like I'm I'm bisexual. And, you know, it's like, it just it really impacts all of us so deeply and I think like even even the sheer fact of it being easier to date someone like in a cis hetero relationship. Oh my god. I don't know if you've seen Lil Nas X's cover coverage, Jolene?

Alex Iantaffi: 40:55

Yes.

Jen Winston: 40:55

Yeah. Okay, great. I'm glad to be able to talk

Alex Iantaffi: 40:59

Right? And I love that you're talking about that, about something other than my book. It's exhausting, but I thought that that was a really beautiful portrayal of like, the defeatedness that like a queer person feels when they lose their partner to like, quote unquote, straight culture. I think I saw this Miss Sherry tweeted about it and realizing. So thank you, Sherry again. Yeah. But yeah, it like that, that. I honestly, I think that cover helped me understand. Where biphobia comes from a bit more like it was really moving to me. And one of the commenters was like, Dolly Parton things that like she's pleading Lil NAS X things it like he's already defeated. And I just thought that was really well said, and, like, speaks to the way a lot of queer people probably feel and then it becomes about projection of that fear. And, you know, the powerlessness we all feel when we face the patriarchy. because they are a manifestation of like, just the power of that cis heteronormative patriarchal standards, right? That's why often cis men don't feel threatened by bi femmes, by sexuality, because they don't view queer relationships as valid in their codes, as straight relationships. And on the other hand, you know, lesbians feel super threatened by by femmes who might date a man, because that legitimacy, right of a relationship that's perceived as heterosexual, you know, is seen as so powerful. But and then, you know, and then there's bi folks left in the middle, where it's, you know...

Jen Winston: 42:49

And well, yeah.

Alex Iantaffi: 42:51

Yeah, go ahead. Go for it.

Jen Winston: 42:51

Oh, well, I was just gonna say, I mean, it brings up the conversation of like, bi privilege, which I had a really hard time like finding the right words to explain why it's not a thing in the book, like...

Alex Iantaffi: 43:05

Yes.

Jen Winston: 43:06

Like, originally, in that FAQ that I ended up deleting, I was like, I tried, like, so many different things to like, explain it. And then I like finally got it kind of to think but it's really just the sheer idea that like being closeted is not a privilege. It's not to say that being in a relationship that the world perceives as heterosexual doesn't have privileges. But I think that that distinction can be really, there's so much nuance to like, these conversations. And that's like, why I'm obsessed with bisexuality, like, why I think it's the best because I love nuance. But it's it's so difficult for people to grasp, and it forces a lot of people who, especially like lesbian and gay people who've been like, oh, this is my identity, you know, they haven't had to, they haven't had to unpack binaries in the same way, at least through their sexuality, like you might have, there are many other ways, but like bisexuality is a forcing function to make you do that.

Alex Iantaffi: 44:06

Absolutely. And that's, you know, I'm with you. I really hear when people talk about bi folks having heterosexual privilege, especially, or bi privilege, because it was like, it is not a privilege, first of all, to be perceived, kind of as heterosexual and then it has a huge impact on mental health. It's very isolating. Right? That's why it's not a privilege. But I think there is this perception that our sexual identity is completely determined by the relationships or even recently, because I teach about sexuality. Somebody reached out to me to be like, how can I even talk about like a bi person who's in a relationship that appears that heterosexual and I said, oh, that's a mixed orientation relationship, you know, one person is bisexual and the other person is not. And I said, you know, people have sexual identities and orientation, not relationships but very few people know the term mixed orientation relationship and the kind of bundle like the gender of a partner determines your sexual identity and that is so yeah, it really raises my sexuality in every way I feel.

Jen Winston: 45:15

Absolutely and I think it's because people lack Yeah, I love that term. I have been I like didn't really even know that term. I sort of did but I because I recently I run this newsletter called The Bimonthly and I started haha. And I did one about about, quote straight passing relationships, language that or not to talk about being in a relationship which I'm not sure if that's the right term, but like hetero, I don't I don't know that it is but hetero representing, essentially mixed orientation. And yeah, that was more what I with somebody who's the same gender as them or another gender was curious about, because I didn't need it to only be hetero representing like, you know, relationships in the queer community. Like also very, like they have the similar struggles and so I got like, normally I did a question sticker on my Instagram and like, on like, a good day, I'll get like 300 from them, you know, and, and whether they share an replies or, like, that's like a huge response. Um, but for this question, I got 1000s like, I don't even think I can read them all, I kept scrolling and they just kept, I hit the mic, I get orientation or not, and, and that language is not fluent, scrolling. And they kept showing up. And it was just clear that this was like a topic that people did not, like have, like, had such a hunger to discuss. Because that community is so like, often erased like people just were, like, so excited to even in queer community. Ya know, let alone if folks are to be like I'm bi and like, this is how my partner received it, or like, my partner doesn't know or it made me not want to come out for a long time. Or like, I was worried that I could only kind of more immersed in a cis hetero world. I feel like I come out if I wanted to be non monogamous and like, all those things came up just in droves. So that was really fascinating.

Alex Iantaffi: 46:56

I'm loving it. Well, you can cut this from the could talk with you forever. There's so many things I want to talk to you about. podcast, but you can stay on until 4:15 if you want. My therapist confirmed. So... That's really sweet to hear. Thank you. Yeah. You know, thats the other thing that I feel whenever we talk about bisexuality on social media, there is a huge response because there is so much pain, I think within the bi community, right? Yeah. And I love the even in your content warning, you know, this, there are no closer shelves in the bookstore than dating and horror that really struck me when I was reading your book. And I was like, wow, yes. That I feel though. That's a really good. Yeah, definition of what it looks like sometimes.

Jen Winston: 48:07

I you know, I have to credit one of my friends who helped me write that joke. Like I throughout the book writing process. I was like texting my two really like funny friends. And I was like, help need something funny in the content. Isn't everybody just a little bit bisexual, and isn't even And like, one of my friends came up with that idea. And I was like, that's brilliant. That you know, everything's a collaboration. But, um, but yeah, I mean now it makes me look brilliant. So that's good. There you go. But yeah, I really do think that's true. And I love that you just said, Well, I don't love the idea. But I love the way you put it that the bi community has so much pain, because I really think that is women's sexuality kind of fluid anyway, and then, and there's what it is like. Even my therapist who's like, still my therapist who I'm talking to after this. When for years, I was like, yeah, like, I think I'm bisexual, like the, and it was never like she always glossed over it. And I always thought it might be because she was like, not equipped to deal with like, a queer, like, storyline in my life. Like she didn't want to lose me as a client. But now in hindsight, I'm like, there was definitely some biphobia there. And I don't almost like, kind of looking at bisexuality as part of blame her. Because I like and I really do appreciate her as a therapist, and now she's great. But when I started dating my friend Ben, who's in the book, who's a bisexual, cisgender, man, he, like, we had opened our religion, we only dated for like six months, because we were like, not a match. But we tried. And we opened our relationships so that we could like explore immaturity? Which, interestingly, it's happened bisexuality on the side. And I remember talking to my therapist about that, and she just like, sort of like, huh, yeah. But like, if you now if I was to tell my therapist, we were going to open our relationship, it would be like, massive, you know, even though the same therapist, and I think I was also being really dismissive of it, like, I think the way I really parallel to how a lot of us trans folks are treated in talked about it probably made it seem like it was a phase or a thought or something. And even when I came out, I didn't even like, tell her. I didn't tell my therapist. It just didn't feel like that big of a deal. But when I started talking about it, I noticed this massive response and like, I got so many DMS, like oh my god, there's a huge community here that like doesn't have anywhere to go. And there's another essay in my book, called terms of gender too I feel like I've experienced it both as a cuffed jeans and feeling seen. Yeah, And it's a it's about like bi culture as an as a meme. And I think that the meme is basically like if you say something is bi culture, it automatically becomes bi culture like cut jeans, obviously, like any one of any gender can cut their jeans, you know, but when bisexuals do it, like, it's like, oh, that's the bisexual thing to do. And I was like, I like I'm obsessed with memes, like love memes. Always have, as I mentioned in the book, I used bisexual person kind of being seen as immature it's a phase to write a column about memes from my college newspaper. But I was thinking about it and I was like, oh my god, this is like the same as bisexual in real life. Because the idea that everyone is bisexual basically means that no one is bisexual. And I think that's like the sneakiest microaggression of all. Yeah.

Alex Iantaffi: 51:27

And so there's kind of it's interesting that or, you know, what are you doing? But also sometimes when you're trans is people kind of infantilize you those liminal identities so to speak, or identities that unsettled binaries are seen as kind of immature or puts in kind of this the slide, which is really hurtful and then it's no wonder that there's such terrible pain in our community.

Jen Winston: 52:17

Yeah, and I think, you know, maybe you know, the Instagram Well Meaning Cis.

Alex Iantaffi: 52:23

Oh, yes.

Jen Winston: 52:23

It's very, I learned a lot from that, like, of what not to do. And I saw one the other day, that was really funny. That was like, so are you finished transitioning? Like, as if, as if it's ever something that is that is done? And it Yeah, and I think like, the beauty to me, of bisexuality means like, sitting forever in uncertainty. And like, that's like, like, you know, that's like a meditative like, sounds like Buddhist idea. You know, it's like, we are like, you're able to sit with that uncertainty and, and just like, trust that, that, like, the water will flow, and it will, like, take you where to go. I'm not. This is my attempt at writing an impromptu proverb. But I think like trans identity is very similar. I like I find that I connect with a lot of trans people like really well, or like, almost immediately, like, we have like a shared understanding. And I think it's because there's like a similar, like, mental work that you have to do in order to identify as bisexual, and also to, like, identify as trans and to be trans. And I think like the most beautiful descriptions I've ever heard about, about being trans. And what it means is like, just relishing, like the fluidity and the impermanence of it. Like it really I relate so much to it in terms of the way I see my bisexuality. So I mean, honestly, like, whatever people find that word or that idea, whatever makes them feel affirmed. Like I think that's a really important concept that I hope that, like everyone, can grasp, but I think that I'm so happy to be queer. Now, the earlier you were, you were saying something that was not funny, but I started laughing. Oh, you were talking about heterosexual privilege. And I was laughing because my partner, like I had posted an Instagram story about heterosexual privilege, like, or, like, did you experience any privilege in these relationships, and my partner just responded and was like, if somebody like calls me straight, like, I'm gonna, like, get in their face or something like my partner's like. So in fact, we both done a lot of unlearning throughout this process. And one of one of the funny things that they said, their, I forget if I like name their identity, but before I say this anecdote, I will they're trans non binary, and they use they/them pronouns. And when we first started dating, we were talking about whether like, a trans man in a relationship with a woman is straight, or, or not. And we both had a lot of unlearning to do around it, but you can kind of see it evidence through this conversation. I was like, yes, like the trans, the man is straight, like because they're a man in a relationship with a woman. They're straight, or like potentially bisexual, you know, I was acknowledging, yes, that potential. I was like that and then my partner was like, no, they're not. And they, like refused to elaborate. This was like our first first date. And I was like, very in that phase of my own learning. I was like, like, you know, I thought it was more important to prioritize the the person's gender, like them being like, if you're a trans man, you're a man, like, so you're straight. And so we had the same fight for a very long time. And then one day, my partner was like, I just don't think it's fair that you would say that that person is straight. Like I just don't think it's fair to them. And I was like, Oh, you like really hate straight people. So that was what I found. But then we both realized we had like, you know, big gaps in our idea there. Like, for one like you, like many trans people in like, mixed orientation, or like hetero presenting relationships, identify as queer. And that's like, they're, they're separate. And I think your your book does such a great job of highlighting all these different scales, or like, levels of the binaries to unpack. I think you say it's like a landscape rather than a continuum. Yeah.

Alex Iantaffi: 56:46

Yes I do talk about gender as a landscape.

Jen Winston: 56:49

Yes, I love it and actually, another thing I've discovered through your book is the work of Sargon Anders. Yes. And the which I believe is, like, referenced in a footnote in my book.

Alex Iantaffi: 57:02

Yeah.

Jen Winston: 57:02

I had a much longer section about it, because I really wanted to talk more about like, allo sexual and a romantic identity. And, and asexual identity and I, like, it was in the FAQ. And you know, but that I really loved thinking of sexuality in that model. Like, it was so helpful to me to be like, Oh, it's like, so non binary, like even these continuums are fake.

Alex Iantaffi: 57:32

Absolutely, yes. Sorry, sexual configuration theory, such a great job of that. And then, you know, I do think that there is this organic affinity between bi and trans communities, in terms of identities and organizing, and Lauren beech, and I used to do a workshop about this kind of bi and trans organizing. Why is there an organic affinity? Because it is kind of, it's the unsettling again, right? It always comes back to this unsettling, I'm learning. And that's why I love that it's kind of woven through the book, but in so many different kinds of lived experiences, if that makes sense.

Jen Winston: 58:14

Yeah, thank you. I mean, I like did not like, I was not like born, understanding any of this. So I felt like, it was very important for me to like, acknowledge that and it actually was a challenge from a writing perspective, in terms of like, when I was writing about my bisexuality in the past tense, like, I did not have an understanding of gender that had my bisexuality be gender inclusive, for a majority of time. So it was like, like, I did put like, all genders or whatever the options were on Tinder, you know, but I like didn't, I didn't understand. And so I had to be I want but it was so important to me to make sure that the definition of bisexuality is seen as like, being gender inclusive. And so that was a challenge like with every time I made reference to like, I want to hook up with this woman I like felt weird saying that, because it felt like it undermined my point about the binary thing. But so I tried to frame it all through this like lens of myself kind of looking back.

Alex Iantaffi: 59:21

And I love that at the end of your book, I think I think it is, right at the end where timeline, right, that's actually the exact title, I think of the last part of the book. And so it does feel like the rest of the thread. And I wonder why you chose to kind of have that as the end of your memoir. Yeah.

Jen Winston: 59:46

Well, I mean, truly, I was trying to figure out how I was going to end the book. And I was also wrestling with my gender identity. And it was the pandemic, where I think a lot of people were wrestling with their gender identities, and I was or the genders. I'm trying to stop saying gender identity, because it's just your agenda. But um, I, yeah, I ultimately I was like, having this kind of realization and while I was writing it that like, oh, I had all this like self gatekeeping I did around the term bisexuality. And I'm just applying that all over again to like being non binary, like, who do I have to? Who do I have to prove? And then when I asked my partner, I was like, What is non binary? And they're like, I don't know. like you told me, you know, I was like, Oh, like this is another thing that's, it's just another thing that if I like it, it's it can be mine. And it can mean be meaningful to me. And I try not to take up like too much space with my, my non binary identity. But I'm really happy I kind of like committed to it because in the beginning, I definitely still felt a bit more comfortable with she her pronouns, and now I'm getting really comfortable with they them pronouns, like, and I like love it. I'm like, Yeah, that's like, and I don't think I would have done that. Like, I don't think I would have done that outright, like, and so I'm really happy that that that has kind of been my journey, even just like throughout this book tour. Like I'm like, Oh, good. They use a pronoun. Like, you know, it's, I guess I do have a preference between between them now, which I didn't used to. But I put that timeline at the end, because it felt like bisexuality, everything I've learned about bisexuality was now kind of a tool in my toolbox to address the questions of gender. And while I was writing that chapter, I was like, holed up in this house in Vermont, which I mentioned. And I was like, going, I would I was questionably it was questionable if I was like, okay, cuz I was like, I would write from like, 6am to like, midnight, and then asleep for a few hours or like, wake up and write. I was like, talking out loud to myself in like a British accent. It was so weird. But it was

Alex Iantaffi: 1:02:15

It was a pandemic, we know.

Jen Winston: 1:02:17

Yeah I think. But yeah, that was like that was like my crunch time for the book. And the only breaks I would give myself were occasionally I would go on TikTok. And I, right before I had written that chapter, I went on TikTok. And I found, like, some meme on my for you page where someone, like, it was someone who was like, looking at the sky, like kind of content, and they were like, me after finally figuring out I'm bisexual, and they were like, smiling and nodding. And then it would like cut to to them themselves, like sneaking in the door. And then there would be like, text that would be like, she they pronouns, or like, you know, it was always a question of gender next, and I went, and I looked at the meme, and there were like, hundreds of posts like this. And I was like, Oh, my God, this is a journey that by people go through, because it's like, I think, for me coming out, like, through my sexuality was like, the, like, only access point I ever felt like I had, like, I can't imagine coming out as, like, non binary before I came out as bisexual, like, it feels like such a bigger deal for my person. But bisexuality is what made me comfortable to have those conversations and to ask those questions. And so when I found out that that was like a thing, that, that by people, I just got a letter, one of my first like, emails from a reader who was like, Thank you for writing this, I'm having the same personal arc. And that, like, just made me so. I mean, it made me feel affirmed in my art and my journey. So that's, that's really been the coolest part. And yeah, thank you for reading all the way to the end, I like can't believe I still can't believe it.

Alex Iantaffi: 1:04:05

Of course, and the love that title to that gender is a drag. Because you know, growing up, I used to say that I felt like I was in drag, and people would be like, but it's not possible, because you're femme presenting, and you're assigned female at birth. And then I was like, surprised for two years later. Yeah. And, for me, it was the same. You know, I think the lots of people see trans identity first, but for me, it was always like, best sexual identity first, exploring my queerness I was a lesbian for like, five minutes. I mean, for years. You know, it was actually kind of really embracing my bisexuality that then led to kind of gender queerness, and eventually kind of a trans non binary identity. And I think that happens for a lot of people. Yeah, that trajectory for more people than we know. And they know and I think that really resonates with folks.

Jen Winston: 1:04:54

Yeah, I think it goes back to what you were saying earlier about. Bisexuality, unsettling the idea of gender. And like, all all questions about it, like it felt so much less, like less of a big deal to be like, 'Oh, maybe like, I'll try this on'. Like, I use the confusion as like, like, it was, I was gonna say a weapon, but I don't like that. But like, I use the confusion, you know, as like a compass in a way the map that I could, like, it helps me apply those same ideas to, to gender and yeah.

Alex Iantaffi: 1:05:30

Abolutely yeah, and then you know, bi community It is just so embracing of gender expensiveness. At least that was my experience.

Jen Winston: 1:05:38

Yeah.

Alex Iantaffi: 1:05:38

And I know, it's very difficult. It's very difficult, very different. That's what I'm trying to say. Very different to come out. Like when there's like so much social media and access, you know, and, you know, I came out more than, like, physical community because I'm way older than you, I think, well, so it's really interesting to notice, like, the different discourses, I guess.

Jen Winston: 1:05:58

I mean, like, if we had more time, I would love to hear about that, because I don't think I've ever been in a physical space that is like a bisexual space.

Alex Iantaffi: 1:06:08

Oh, my God, it's the best.

Jen Winston: 1:06:09

I can imagine. Well, so my friend and I actually we were, we were going to start a party that was going to be called the BI monthly, before the pandemic, and then the pandemic happens. And I was like, I'm taking the title for my newsletter. But I, I think that there's such a need, like, and there are these like fluid sexually fluid parties in, in New York. And I think it's no coincidence that a lot of them are like center, queer people of color, and like black and indigenous queer people. Because that, like the idea of binaries is like a very colonial idea. And, and so I mean, there are a lot of these fluid parties, but like, I'm craving something that's just like bisexual, and I don't even know what...

Alex Iantaffi: 1:06:58

Bi spaces at the best. They really are.

Jen Winston: 1:07:00

Oh, my God. Well, another time, we'll have to talk about that. Because I would love to, like, hear with that. What that looks like, like, I can't even really imagine. Or, I mean, if you want to say quickly what it feels like.

Alex Iantaffi: 1:07:14

I feel like we need to have a whole other episode just to talk about bi spaces and social media. But like, very quickly, I think for me, the first I went to bicon for the first time in the UK 20 years ago. And of course not that bicon is not, you know, devoid of problems like any other community, but even just being in a space with queer people where all sorts of queer all sorts of genders it was really was like coming home, it was like taking a breath, and knowing the possibility of queerness in every way, not just in terms of my sexuality, but my gender. And then I have stories about bi color party in Amsterdam, that was really fun. I feel like we should do a whole nother episode.

Jen Winston: 1:07:59

I mean, I'm, yeah, I would love that. Yeah, I'll probably reach out to you because I still am trying to I want to do something like that and it would be very cool to collaborate in some way. So

Alex Iantaffi: 1:08:15

You know, up here, we've just finished the Because Conference, which is another big bisexual conference up in the Midwest, so yeah, I would love to talk about BI space.

Jen Winston: 1:08:24

Yay. Okay. Yeah, well, I'm here for any episodes all the time. This was this was lovely.

Alex Iantaffi: 1:08:29

That sounds great. Well, I'm aware of time and I want to be respectful of your time and one question that I always ask all my guests at the end is, is there anything we haven't talked about that you would like to make sure it's in this episode?

Jen Winston: 1:08:45

I guess I just like cheers to all the bi people listening and cheers. I don't know Cheers to everyone listening but especially the bi people. And I mean, I'm just happy to be here. I think we've covered a lot of ground so...

Alex Iantaffi: 1:09:02

We did cover a lot of good so thank you so much. And cheers to all the bi and non binary bisexuals out there and and and everybody of any gender or sexuality please by Jen's book, Greedy Notes From A Bisexual Who Wants Too Much. It's really good. I recommend it and thank you again, Jen for being with us today. I really appreciate you.

Jen Winston: 1:09:26

Thank you so much for having me. Had a great time.

Alex Iantaffi: 1:09:29

Thank you and thanks listener for listening to another episode. And for keep following Gender Stories. I look forward to the next episode.