Gender Stories

Sorted: a conversation with Jackson Bird

December 07, 2019 Alex Iantaffi Season 2 Episode 31
Gender Stories
Sorted: a conversation with Jackson Bird
Show Notes Transcript

Alex Iantaffi interviews Jackson Bird about his first book - Sorted: Growing Up, Coming Out, and Finding My Place -  as well as being a trans creator and so much more! Jackson Bird is a writer and digital creator dedicated to demystifying the transgender experience by sharing his and others’ stories online. You can hear some of those stories on his YouTube channel jackisnotabird. A TED Resident and Speaker, Jackson’s TED Talk “How to talk (and listen) to transgender people” has been viewed over a million times. Jackson was also a 2018 GLAAD Rising Star Digital Innovator, a YouTube NextUp Creator, and a LogoTV Social Trailblazer nominee. Currently a Civic Media Fellow at the University of Southern California’s Annenberg Innovation Lab, he is also known for his past work with the Harry Potter Alliance. Jackson lives in New York City, where he regularly puts his apartment at risk with his slapdash YouTube series, Will It Waffle? You can follow him online @jackisnotabird 

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Hosted by Alex Iantaffi
Music by Maxwell von Raven
Gender Stories logo by Lior Effinger-Weintraub


Musical Intro:

There's a whole lotta things I want to tell you

Narrator:

I want to tell you everyone has a relationship with about. Adventures dangerous and queer. Some you could guess and gender. What's your story? Hello and welcome to Gender stories some I've only hinted at, so please lend me your ear. with your host, Dr. Alex Iantaffi.

Alex Iantaffi:

Hello Gender Stories listeners and welcome to another episode of Gender Stories with your host Dr. Alex Iantaffi. As ever, I am excited I know every time but it's really true. I am excited to be interviewing Jackson Bird, the writer and digital creator dedicated to demystifying the transgender experience by sharing his and other stories online. You can hear some of those stories on his YouTube channel. Jax is not a bird and in his first book sorted growing up, coming out and finding my place. It's a really great book. I wish it existed when I wrote How To Understand Your Gender because I would have definitely given it as a resource in the book and I will do that in my future books. A TED resident speaker Jackson's TED talk, how to talk and listen to transgender people has been viewed over a million times. Jackson was also a 2018 GLAAD rising star digital innovator, a YouTube NextUp creator, and the logo TV social trail blazer no meaning. Currently a civic media fellow at the University of Southern California's Annenberg Innovation Lab. He's also known for his past work with the Harry Potter Alliance. Jackson lives in New York City where he regularly puts his apartment at risk with a slapdash YouTube series Willie Waffle. You can follow him online at Jax Is Not A Bird. So welcome on Gender Stories. I'm so excited to be interviewing you today.

Jackson Bird:

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. And I have to say I mean, I loved your book, too. We were just talking and I said the exact same thing of I wish I had discovered it earlier because I would have put it into the resources. It's been so helpful reading it since then.

Alex Iantaffi:

I know I was talking to Molly Woodstock of Gender Reveal just yesterday. And we would like what was in the stars there around 20 like 16 17 18, or this books and like podcasts were coming out. And there was just some some combination of things that were encouraging trans creators to just get out there. Yeah, I'm really glad.

Jackson Bird:

There's yeah, there's so much that's like, like started in the past few years. And coming out still, I remember, I have a podcast I put on an episode like every seven months. But when I started it, there just really weren't many others because I started it in 2016 or 17. And then shortly thereafter, like Molly's came out, and Molly's just doing everything I wish I could have done with that podcast, but they're actually doing it. So I love gender reveal. But also like books, I keep talking to other trans masculine authors. And like 2019 2020 there's like a renaissance of novels coming out written by trans masculine authors with trans masculine characters. It's such an exciting time.

Alex Iantaffi:

It really is because Ryan Salas has got I think, is that second son that's coming No. Second time, his this first book. The second book is coming out just now, which I'm totally forgetting the title. So sorry, Ryan, I will plug your book in that in a future episode, I promise. But yeah, that is like this renaissance of trans creators. What do you think that's about?

Jackson Bird:

You know, I am not sure. I mean, I think social media over the past decade has really helped us sort of find our own kind of agency and being able to tell our stories in a way that we couldn't as broadly before, and that has helped, you know, the larger society of cisgender people who are largely in control of traditional media, kind of see that there is a need and a want for these stories to be told. And so I think kind of giving us more opportunities. I mean, I remember several years ago, I was trying to work on a novel with a trans male character like a YA novel, and being told by agents like oh, well, you know, we've already been queried by to other trans men who are writing books with with trans characters so I don't think we need that. And that's something that people from marginalized communities face a lot in the publishing world is like, Oh, we got one we don't need anymore. Like, never stopped to think that they could be completely different stories and now there's so many coming out. So I think there has been at least in some of the more progressive, like imprints or production companies of traditional media, there's there's more people who are willing to be like, actually, yeah, we do. We do need these stories and there is there's an audience for them.

Alex Iantaffi:

Absolutely and it's like the Highlander syndrome right there can be only one and there's like no need for that because you know, we don't say oh, we got an abscess out or sources characters. Stories about I don't know, coming of age, which there are a million stories about coming of age, if your're cis but not as many. I think if you're transgender or non binary or queer, absolutely. Did you ever write the young adult novel in the end?

Jackson Bird:

No, I and that one, I don't know if I ever will because it wasn't a strong idea that I had, but I am trying to work on another one right now that I'm really excited about. I'm going to try to do nano wrimo next month.

Alex Iantaffi:

Oh, yes.

Jackson Bird:

National Novel Writing Month and see if I can just kind of push out a rough draft of that manuscript that I can work with. Because yeah, I would love to write some novels, I would love to write more nonfiction as well, some more creative nonfiction. Yeah, I've been very blessed to sort of fell into this opportunity with this book. And I really want to use it for all it's worth to help me be able to publish more in the future and keep telling more good stories.

Alex Iantaffi:

Absolutely. So let's talk about your book Sorted. I've been really loving the book. And what I love about it is that it's kind of it's very well written. And it's also kind of part memoir, part kind of educational. Right? So why did you write the book in the way it's written basically?

Jackson Bird:

Yeah, I mean, it was really important to me to include the educational aspects, for a number of reasons. One is, is just the simple reason that I think when you're talking about trans people, and non binary people, and gender non conforming people, it's like, we kind of have to come with a glossary. You know, for people who are unfamiliar with our lives and experiences and our needs, like there's just so much terminology. And it's also very complex, like in very nuanced terminology that can be very different. So even just, you know, the glossary I put at the front, and that lots of people who write either trans memoirs or trans novels will also often do a very similar like quick glossary. Like that's not enough like we you need to dive in even more. So my books got like 30 extra sidebars of information throughout the book because it's just it's, especially for people who are new to it, whether they are trans or non binary themselves, or if they're cisgender. Like it can take a long time to really digest and start understanding the concepts behind these terms. So I really wanted to do that, you know, my work across all media is in advocacy and education of trans awareness, and really wanting people who are either questioning themselves to have the resources they need, or people who are looking to maybe be allies and supportive of us to really actually understand and not just understand in name and say, like, oh, yeah, I support trans people, and then be misgendering us or whatever. But there was also the fact that like, my story, my life. Yeah, I'm sitting on a mountain of privilege, and had a fairly easy transition. And so I didn't want people to go away from this book, thinking like, that's the only story. This is the one trans narrative, like someone who picks up this book, and it's the first trans narrative that they've ever read. I wanted to be able to provide a lot of like context and background and resources to lead people to further learning and other more diverse trans stories. So it wasn't just my own. But of course, that did make it complicated, because, you know, it's so hard to get this stuff, right. And there's, there's a number of things that I didn't do, maybe as well as I would or like, is not going to age that well and stuff. You know, I tried to do my best. And I would like be telling my friends about this as I was, I was I was in the editing process, or like where it was too late to change things. And I was like, oh, just, you know, I'm so scared about things that I might have gotten wrong. And they'd be like, well, it's your story, like, no one can fight that. And I'm like, but that's the problem is I made it not my story. It's my story but then it's this extra stuff. And the extra stuff is where I got worried. But anyway, yeah, basically, just because of, I just so strongly believe that we we need to break down this idea that there's one monolithic trans narrative that there's only one way to be trans. And so in telling my own story, I didn't want there to be any confusion about this being the only way to be trans.

Alex Iantaffi:

Absolutely and that's one of the things I really appreciated about your memoir that it was your stories. And yet, you were doing that all throughout, like there is so much more out there. This is just one tiny piece of the landscape, right? But when you do that, it is unnerving. Because it's like when Meg-John and I wrote How To Understand Your Gender, we were trying to have multiple perspectives and we were like, is this out of our lane? Should we even be talking about that?

Jackson Bird:

Yeah

Alex Iantaffi:

We don't talk about this. How can we not talk about this right? There is almost this dilemma. And of course, this fear that by the time the book is out, and definitely in another two or three years, we'll be farther along, which is great, right? But so how did you manage that anxiety? Because I know I got really nervous when my book came out around visibility and feedback and all of that.

Jackson Bird:

Yeah, I got so so nervous, the closer I got to it. I mean, during the process, I was reading as many books as I could, I mean, for years, like, you know, like over a decade, I've been just consuming as much transmedia as possible, whether it's more academic books, whether it's other memoirs, talking to trans people at lots of different events and in spaces, watching videos, listening to podcasts. So I felt like I was working from a pretty strong base. But I made sure that as I was writing, you know, researching everything as much as I could, whether it was from like academic journals, which is what publishers want to really see as citations or like, what to me is more important, you know, qualitative research from fellow trans people, and just discussions and stuff. And then I also made sure to have a number of sensitivity readers. That's probably one of the biggest regrets I have is I wish I could have had more. Like you don't want to have too many cooks in the kitchen but it's also a thing where you really, you know, you need people of different ages and races and gender and sexual identities and disability status. And I was on a ridiculously fast timeline for this book. It all happened this year, I got the book deal on January 3 and the book came out in less than a month ago. So it was a ridiculously fast timeline.

Alex Iantaffi:

That is so fast.

Jackson Bird:

I know. It's funny, like, I'll talk to other authors and people who have published books. And they'll always be like, oh, yeah, I had a quick timeline too. And then I tell them my timeline. They're like, what?

Alex Iantaffi:

That is fast.

Jackson Bird:

To be fair, I was working from like a 75 page manuscript. So there was like, there was a little bit of a nugget that had been established already. And we didn't think that I was actually going to expand it as much as I did. It was originally like, close to 25,000 words, and we were like, okay, write 50,000 and I ended up at 88,000.

Alex Iantaffi:

I know that problem very well.

Jackson Bird:

Fortunately, they were like, oh, no longer is better. That's fine. I was like, but yeah, it was because of the timeline, there's just a number of things that I felt I didn't do, up to my own standard in small ways, nothing huge. Like, I think most of it, I still pretty much stand by. But there's here and there, where it was like, oh, I should have caught that. Or, you know, maybe I should have had another sensitivity reader of this identity and gotten their feedback. And I'm very excited to do all of that for future things that I published when I have a more reasonable timeline. But, you know, because there were those things, they were little things I was insecure about. Yes, once I got to the point of like a month before publication, and like the books gonna print, you can't change anything. And I just kept getting more and more nervous about how it would be received if somehow I had missed a huge error. And I've also there have been people that I have seen, that have been in my like, you know, extended networks, not anyone I've been super close friends with, but the day that their books came out, or the week before it came out some big kind of scandal hit. And to be fair, these were people who were maybe slightly problematic before, so I shouldn't have been comparing myself to them. But I would see that happen. And I'll just be like, Oh my gosh, what if that's gonna happen to me? That would be the worst thing ever. Unfortunately, it didn't yet. But yeah, it's so it's just so nerve racking because you're like, I am only one person. And yes, you have people helping, you've got a publication team. But in my case, my publication team was all cisgender people, mostly straight. And yes, I had the sensitivity readers, but even they are only like individuals, like there's only so much you can do. And so I just tried to do my best and then tried to remind myself that I did my best. And hopefully, it's it's received in that way.

Alex Iantaffi:

I want to go back to the visibility thing in a moment but before we do that, if there is kind of one thing that readers take away from your book, what do you want that one thing to be? Like, if there was one message that you really wanted people to get?

Jackson Bird:

The main thing I keep saying, when people ask me that is that I want people to realize, like, I want this to be a starting point. I want them to go off and learn, like, read other trans stories, listen and learned from other trans people. Like hopefully, yes, hopefully, yes, they enjoy my book. And you know, maybe they laugh a little, maybe it maybe it touches them, maybe they learned something, well, hopefully they learned something. But I really want the takeaway to be, oh, this was one trans story and I've been given a peek at others. And now I want to go off and read other trans stories and I want to be involved in the, you know, the trans movement and help out and well, I guess that's kind of the ally takeaway. I guess for for trans people themselves, maybe they just find some resonance and hopefully some resources.

Alex Iantaffi:

And, you know, that's the piece about finding resources and finding resonance. I think a lot of us maybe struggled with not having that, you know, when we first started coming out. So how important was it for you to put something out there, that would be maybe a little bit of a, of a touchstone for people who are isolated or know anybody in the community? How much was that part of your motivation I guess?

Jackson Bird:

That was, that was a big part of my motivation. Because I, you know, when you look at across social media, and YouTube and real life, my story is not unique at all, you know, I'm a white, able bodied trans guy. But when you look at traditional media, of what's been told of our narratives, there are a couple points of my story that are different from what has mostly been told. And that lack of representation for me growing up meant, I didn't think that I could be trans, I was very confused about what I was feeling. And so not having that representation was very difficult for me and I have just always wanted to try to be that representation that I didn't have and some of those points of my story that I didn't see, and again, it's kind of funny saying now because it's stuff that either seems really obvious or you can be like, I know 12 people with that experience. But again, like in terms of, especially print media, like other memorials that have been published, not so much and, you know, trans men and trans masculine people in general are just not covered in the media as much but as a queer trans guy I identify now as bisexual, which to me means I'm attracted to people of my own gender and other genders. So anyone anyone goes. But I grew up like thinking I was mostly attracted to men to boys. And that made me think that I couldn't be trans. And it also meant I think something for a lot of us who are like trans masculine people who are more predominantly attracted to men or masculine people is a lot of us had periods of our life where we had very feminine experiences, like really lived as a woman, maybe we're content with it maybe even thrived in that lifestyle. And, for me, at least, that made me think, oh, maybe I can't be trans. Like, I had these phases in my life where I felt okay with that. So clearly, I can't be trans. And I've heard that confusion from so many other mostly queer trans guys, but lots of trans masculine people across the spectrum. And there are so many trans memoirs out there again, not enough compared to cis memoirs, just not enough, but memoir and gender theory is like the two most saturated genres that trans writers write in. But of the like trans men I will say a binary trans men memoirs that are out there hardly any are gay or queer or bisexual. They might talk a little bit about exploring their sexuality, post transition. But, you know, the the main standout one from a gay trans man is Matt Kaylee's, just had hormones from the early 2000s and which is a fantastic book. And it's also great because he transitioned later in life, but there just aren't enough from queer trans men. And so it was important to me to show that perspective and the perspective of someone who, you know, I went back and forth a lot, I really ping ponged in my identity as I was trying to figure things out. And also, you know, I did have a little bit of an easier experience. And I think that has some power too, it's hard for me to justify that sometimes, because I'm like, why doesn't like my voice maybe doesn't need to be heard. But I do think it's important to see that sometimes it can be okay. And it's not, you know, the, the tragedy stereotypes that we often hear about, which are totally based in reality. But I think the subtext of that, as well as it was still really hard for me, you know, that even when you have all these privileges, and a lot of things are going right, the experience of being trans, of being confused about your gender can still take you to the brink. And so if it can be that dark and that hard and difficult for someone who has had a pretty easy time of things, how much worse must it be for people who have other factors in their life, whether it be race, or a very religious family, or ability status, or like, what have you? And so I sometimes think like, okay, maybe we need a couple of happy stories out there to sort of show. Yeah, I don't know, to show that contrast and show that it is still hard even then.

Alex Iantaffi:

Absolutely and I think it is important to show that contrast that even when you have a supportive family and a supportive community, it can be incredibly challenging, it can be incredibly taxing for people's mental health and it can be so confusing. I love what you said. And that was another reason why I love the memoir, because you're right, there haven't been that many about trans masculine folks who are kind of queer slash gay, kind of more attracted to other masculine folks. And, and those stories are different. You know, I see people dealing with a lot of internalized queer phobia on top of internalized and then also other people's projections, right? I remember, even my mom was very confused and asked me questions like, well, I don't understand you were not a tomboy growing up, you were playing with Barbies, and you like musicals. And, you know, I remember going well, there are not a lot of resources in Italian but luckily, Glee has been dubbed. And I was like, do you watch Glee? So if you take Curt and Fin then those are different types of masculinity. I have a different type of masculinity, like a more queer masculinity. And she was like, Oh, I get it now. And I was like, okay, great. But I think even now, when, you know, trans masculine folks maybe have a gender expression, either that gender expression that's more feminine, or a sexual identity that is more being attracted to masculine folks, they get questioned a lot from other by other people, whether it's family, whether it's therapists, whether it's the world at large, and then when you put kind of queer phobia on top of that, all that kind of quite a lot. Did you find some of those, that questioning that other people have sometimes towards that intersection of gender and sexuality and maybe doesn't make as much sense to them? Yeah, I mean, I think when I was coming out, because that had been such a big hang up for me, in my own self discovery. I was I was very clear. When I was coming out to people I that I was I at the time, I was saying I was gay. I had sort of not figured out my sexuality because I was busy figuring out my gender, which I think is another difference I think for you know, trans masculine people who would identify as straight who may be previously identified as a lesbian or part of the gay community, usually they figure out their sexuality and then their gender. And then it's so sometimes it's swapped for us who are bi or gay or queer, trans guys. And, yeah, so my sexuality was like on the backburner. I was like, I'm just gonna say that I'm gay, because this was so hard for me to conceptualize that I want it to be a teaching moment when I come out to people, and I want them to like, understand that I'm not changing that much, or what have you. And that everyone kind of got that. And that was one of the first times where I was like, wow, I really was blockhead not realizing you can be gay and trans, because everyone else seems to get it fine. But I think, honestly, I think that I, I, what you just described of whether it's family, whether it's society at large, or even within the trans community, the the kind of pressure, social pressure or misunderstanding or even prejudice sometimes of like trans masculine people can't be feminine. I see that all the time. And I think I have maybe internalized some of that against myself, where there are definitely times where I mean, there are parts of me that are just like, straight up more masculine, like that is just me being who I am. But there are definitely moments in life or ways that I sometimes interact with the world where I realize, Oh, I'm putting on this more masculine show than is true for me because I'm not wanting to whether it's get made fun of or I'm wanting to feel more safe in a space, or I'm just aware of the way that people will treat trans masculine people who aren't what they think is masculine enough. And it always just like messes with your head, your or just seems so silly, because it's like, there are exactly what you just said, with the Glee example. There are feminine men out there and when they're cis, like, yes, someone might be like, Oh, you need to act like a real man. But they're never gonna, like, think that you're not a man, because you're acting feminine. But with trans guys, you literally get that man card taken away if you don't act man. And the same thing for trans women and trans feminine as well, on the opposite side of the spectrum. And that one of the things that I find so sad is when when that happens within trans community, right? When, when there are all these ideas about this is what being trans means. And I understand that it comes from pain and trauma to some degree, right? We need to kind of police our borders somehow because there's so much questioning from the outside, but it really breaks my heart when it's within trans community. And I don't know if you've experienced any, any of that at all, or, or also if it's shifting generationally, you know, I'm not sure. So yeah, I was wondering about that.

Jackson Bird:

Yeah, I mean, again, I don't think I've experienced it myself, although I am someone who like often forgets harder moments of my life, like push them into a box, and then I forget about them. But I don't think I've personally experienced that I've absolutely seen it happen in support groups, or in you know, like community forums and subreddits, and stuff online. And just with a lot of my friends, like, I'm friends with a lot of more feminine trans masculine people and so this is a constant frustration that they're always discussing. And yeah, it is so tough to see within the within the community. And you're absolutely right, of where it comes from, you know, because it comes from experiences that they've had and fears that they've had, that they're projecting on to other people. And I can get that, you know, when you've worked so hard to be seen as who you want to be seen as, and, and work so hard to have society accepts you that way. You can see maybe someone else's expression as a threat to that work and acceptance that you've gotten. But that's also like, like, I can see why you feel that way. I do. I don't agree with that being our ideal world here. You know, I think if we all want liberation, like everyone needs to be included in that. But as far as it changing generally, generationally, I think I feel the same way about that, as I do with most progressive issues. Where I think, yes, overall, for the most part, it is, and people are becoming more open minded, and seeing in this case, like gender in a more fluid way, and just accepting however, people want to identify and express themselves. But I just also still see so many people of my generation and below, who are not accepting in that way and who are really, really, on the side of this is what you have to do to be trans. And this is how you have to be a man like I almost feel like we're getting a backlash against some of the progressive stuff that is, and this is very specific to the trans community when I'm saying this, but also just like broadly across every issue in the world, like I think we had so much like general progress as a, as a, I'll say, as a nation here in the US, because that's where my main perspective that I can speak to this with authority is from but then, like, some people weren't okay with that, and they felt like they were they were getting their voices not listened to. And so then they just sort of became very, very vocal in these very, I would say prejudice ways. I mean, this is a huge thing with the online trans community. There are just so many like young trans folks out there policing what it means to be trans.

Alex Iantaffi:

It's kind of blowing my mind this thing of, let's talk about it, this trans trend, transgender thing that comes up, you know, I'm a therapist, so definitely comes up with young people here, in supervision with my supervisees work with trans youth as well. And that's another thing that breaks my heart, because I'm like, these are exactly the same arguments that parents have made, the teachers have made, this folks make and, and I didn't expect those to come from young people. And there is this wave of like, I don't want to be taken for transgender. So somebody was pretending to be trans because now it's popular, apparently, I can't, you know, and to me sounds like a bunch of internalized transphobia. But I'm also aware that I'm such a different generation from folks I'm trying, I'm trying to understand, but I have never met a transgender, it feels like it's this kind of shadow over trans community that people are scared of being seen as not valid. And so they, they have this kind of strong boundaries about what being trans really means. I don't I don't know if you have any more insight about that phenomenon or not?

Jackson Bird:

Yeah, I mean, I just I completely agree with you and I've heard it from a lot of my friends who are educators across the nation, you know, with teachers who are maybe advisors of GSAs, or, you know, they work at the library, and they'll message me or call me up, and they're like, I have, like, trans students it's like trans on trans bullying that's happening. They're like, this is not what I was expecting. And, you know, they, these educators will, literally their students have named dropped certain influencers and creators out there that they've learned these things from. And that's what gets really worrying to me is like, I think there are some very vocal voices that are leading a lot of younger folks to believe things that not only are harming other people that they might be like, pushing this information on, but often harming themselves filling them with so much of that shame and internal internalized transphobia or homophobia. And yeah, I don't know, it's really, really a bummer to me. And it is also just like, confusing sometimes for the reasons you said, I'm just like, Wait, how did? How did we get here? How did you think this? Exactly? Oh, yeah, please, please, please.

Alex Iantaffi:

But you are right. There are some influencers and creators who are kind of leading some of this right? Or influence anymore, or even the stories out there. And that kind of boggles my mind a little bit, too, because now we have the we have the internet, which is something I didn't have growing up. I am that old. You know, there was no internet when I was a teenager and there are so many more voices out there so many more stories, you know, like yours and your memoir and your YouTube and there are so many more possibilities. And yet it's almost like this backlash that some folks are like, no, that's too many possibilities. Now we have to bring it in, right, make it smaller. And so I wonder how you see your role as a creator and somebody who has kind of a high profile? We want to call you on social media? I'm not sure I even understand what an influencer is, maybe. But as somebody who has an audience, like, how do you see your role in kind of this regard?

Jackson Bird:

Yeah, it's, it is something I think I'm increasingly cynical about, I spent many years, like working for a nonprofit that did a lot of digital activism. So I was always defending the role of social media and how, you know, it does give people agency and it gives people community and all of these great things, and I still believe all of that. But you know, the internet is, it's, it's like anything else where if anyone can share their voice, then you're gonna get people that you don't necessarily agree with or who, you know, like, in my opinion, might be spreading some dangerous information and a lot of inaccurate information, which can be dangerous to either people figuring themselves out, or as you brought up, you know, teachers, medical providers, parents getting sort of the wrong information or harmful information. And, yeah, my, my role, I mean, I just try very hard to make sure that anytime I'm speaking, or you know, making a post or something, that it's the most accurate and inclusive information or way of sharing something that I can make it. I think that anyone who has any type of influence, who has any type of public profile at all needs to understand their responsibility in anything that they're putting online, in terms of the fact that anyone can see it forever, which is both in terms of making sure that whoever is seeing it is going to receive that information in a way that is productive and not harmful but also for themselves and you know, the people in their life making sure that they're protecting their own privacy and their own mental health. And thirdly, being aware aware of their power structure there, and the authority that they have in having a certain number of followers. You know, it's always really disheartening to see people who have 50,000 Twitter followers quote, retweeting someone who has five, and then all of their followers pile on and make fun of and harass this one person who, like, made a comment. So they're five followers and like, didn't realize what they were getting into. Or I see a lot of piling on of like, you know, targeting specific other creators on YouTube who almost always are smaller than the one who is starting the targeting. It's just, yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's tough. The fact that anyone can really have a, can make a really big impact online. And it's not that I want more gatekeepers in the world but it is tough that someone who has not thought about any of these things, who maybe doesn't have any sources doesn't hasn't really like thought these things through doesn't have any background to be saying certain things. What they say can be received with the same, like authority and expertise, as I don't know, a peer reviewed academic journal or something like that. It's tricky. And it's also tough when it's like, the people putting out that information and the people receiving it are both under 18. And there's, there's legal implications of that and it just gets so messy.

Alex Iantaffi:

And messy is a really good word for it. Right? And makes me think about what you talked about the responsibility of what we put out there. Once we start having an audience, however big or small, right? And they can also feel this pressure of doing it perfectly. You know, you talked about, you know, about a month before your book came out, you were starting to have this anxiety, things happen. People do get called out there, I've made mistakes in the past. None of us are perfect, right? I've certainly used language when I didn't know any better, you know. And I use things like male bodied and female body until somebody pulled me aside and was like, let me explain to you why this is not okay. And I was like, you are correct. This is not okay, actually any perpetuates cisgenderism. So we, you know, most of us had to go through kind of a learning process and have made mistakes, and but now with the internet, those mistakes can be permanent and really highly visible.

Jackson Bird:

Yep.

Alex Iantaffi:

And I just wonder kind of how much that that drives can have some fear or some pressure to be just as perfect as you can or as accurate as you can. And, and what's that pressure, like for you as a creator?

Jackson Bird:

Yeah, I mean, it's in. It's a sometimes more enormous pressure than others. I think, you know, if I'm making something that's totally within my wheelhouse of like, trans masculine, you know, then I, I mean, I still mess up there. But like, I feel a little bit more comfortable. I don't feel like the enormous pressure. But if I'm ever like waving into a little bit more broad topics or something, then I definitely can get scared by that. And I think it is that thing to when like, you have done your due diligence, you have tried your best you thought you got it all right, and then you get called out. That's when you can start like just feeling the weight on your shoulders racking up every time and that pressure mounts and mounts and mounts and and it does depend how someone can call you out like is it really a call out where they're about to cancel you? Or is it calling in where it's like, hey, let's have this conversation? Like, you know, maybe you didn't know this, let's talk about it. And that is always the better way to handle that. I would love to see that going forward. Like you know, this canceled culture being put aside in favor of calling people in. At least, you know, there should at least be like three strikes or something like try to call people in but if it's some person who has just keeps messing up and doesn't even try and doesn't apologize and doubles down. That's that's what I have no patience. But you know, I think the the two things that I see from this culture of like canceled culture, two things happening is one I've seen a number of really, really smart, creative, like warm hearted, wonderful, wonderful people who are creating content and really making a difference and helping a lot of people out. And they've been faced with so much of that and gotten so much of that pressure that they snap and either have some type of breakdown, or just have to be like, you know what, I can't do it anymore. I'm not making anything anymore. Some of them have even snapped to the point of turning to the other side, and becoming like, anti everything. And then I think you also just have you know, a lot of people who whether they are having with some level of influence or not, they see this canceled culture they see you know like the PC culture and stuff. They're like, yeah, this is too hard. And so I'm just going to be the opposite of that and like purposefully, edgy and problematic and like that becomes their brand. It's a lot.

Alex Iantaffi:

It is it is a lot and to me what's fascinating is that some of the tools that were used to really, for many of us who had marginalized identity to push back against real power, like systemic power, you know, like Carlyle was is really about people who had real systemic power, which is often kind of cis white men, for example, or in with canceled culture, and now it's within community. And it's often about perceived power and influence. Because let's face it, a lot of a lot of us don't have like this huge power in the dominant culture. Even if you have a lot of followers, you're not necessarily going to have the same power, by and large as a lot of kind of folks who have real institutional power or real systemic power. And that's the heartbreaking part that in some ways, it's almost like, I don't know if it if I would call him fighting, but it's almost the scarcity culture, where the scarcity culture where we kind of push one another to the margins, which I don't love rather than kind of uplifting each other up. Do you know what I'm talking about? Does that make sense?

Jackson Bird:

No, it absolutely does. I mean, yeah, something I see so often is like people who are like, really putting themselves out there, like really doing the work really, really trying, getting criticized much more heavily than someone who's like, there's no hope for and which I get. And it's like, just because someone's doing some good things should not excuse if they say the wrong thing, or do the wrong thing here and there. But it is frustrating to me when I see some of those people just getting beaten down so much more. When meanwhile, there's like, I don't even want to name names, but, uh, you know, like a Donald Trump or something like that someone who's clearly terrible. And they're like, not getting, I guess Donald Trump is a bad example. But I mean, I'll just I'll like, you know, there was in 2014. There was kind of like a, me too movement within this one circle of YouTube and wizard rock, and a lot of those people were outed as abusers. And it was, it was a really tough time. Because there were a lot of us who are like friends with both victims and abusers. And it was everything you could imagine it was, it was really tough. And one thing that stood out to me was like, yes, of course, all of these people needed to be called out and held accountable for what happened. But I it was right when YouTube was starting to get like a lot bigger and have a lot of like prank YouTubers, and a lot of corporations coming in. And I was just like, there are so many other creators out here who are doing just as bad or much worse of things. And their audiences are never going to call them out. But like, all of these guys, were doing stuff in sort of more social justice circles. So they got called out earlier on or for less and, and it's one of the things it's like, okay, everyone needs to be held accountable here, of course, but it's frustrating that people who are consistently doing worse and not even trying to do good or act like they're doing good, kind of get a pass. I don't know.

Alex Iantaffi:

Absolutely. Like you said, it's not about not wanting to keep people accountable. We do need to hold each other accountable.

Jackson Bird:

Absolutely.

Alex Iantaffi:

And, and we also need to understand that sometimes when we're all kind of traumatized and marginalized experiences, also things get messy. And so at the same time, so yes, we need all of that. And at the same time, there are so many people who have real power, who have real platforms who are getting away with those sorts of things. There was a really great article. I'm totally spacing on the name of the author, but it was why queers are so mean to queers, which I think came out on daily extra as a trans feminine otter talk. That name is slowly escaping me, I am so sorry.

Jackson Bird:

Put it in the show notes later.

Alex Iantaffi:

Exactly, I'll put in the show notes later but I really love that articles, because in some way, it touched on some of the things we're talking about. Right? And some of it does come kind of from pain and the disappointment that happens when somebody that you think is part of your community does something harmful. It almost hurts more in some way, right than people that who we expect to be harmful.

Jackson Bird:

Yeah. That is such a good point. There was I wish I could remember what I was watching. I was watching like some movie or TV show last week. And like nothing to do with LGBTQ community or like just totally just some, like, weird fiction or whatever. And there was like, something that happened and this one character volunteered to help. And then got criticized for something in there, but no one else even volunteered to help. And that was what was funny was like the person who volunteered, got yelled at and criticized. But no one even said anything of like, Well, why didn't anyone else volunteer? I don't know. And I went in that moment. When I watched it. I was like, Oh, that is so much like what we were just talking about. I thought it was if I can ever remember what it is I'll tweet it out. Because I remember just in that moment of being like, this is such a good metaphor.

Alex Iantaffi:

Well because there is a risk and putting yourself out there right? So you're putting yourself out there with this memoir. You know, you have a TED talk, you have a YouTube channel like you are putting yourself out there. And there is a sometimes this anxiety of like when is something going to me because I'm sure I've done something in my life, that it's a mistake or that it's not perfect, you know, and that is a lot of vulnerability. And Meg-John recently wrote this blog post about treating authors or anybody who has a platform kind of consensually, which I thought was really good.

Jackson Bird:

I'd love to read that.

Alex Iantaffi:

Right, it's, I think they published it just last week, it's, it's very good, because in some ways, you kind of become almost public property in some way as an influencer. And I don't know if you ever experienced that, that people feel they have a relationship with you, where you might not have a relationship with them, but they have a relationship with your public persona, really? Not with the whole of who you are, if that makes sense. And how does that impact you? If at all?

Jackson Bird:

Yeah, I mean, I, the main way it's impacted me is just like, bearing in mind and sometimes messing with my head, I was fortunate that I was friends with folks who were like, famous and niche communities much longer before I had any any type of like following at all. So I sort of saw how they interacted with that, what that meant to them what things they did to protect their privacy, or for self care. And so I was able to just take a lot of that on very early on as my platform grew. And there's also the fact that, like, I do try to do my best, and I also don't rock the boat as much as probably some of my activist peers think I should. Everyone who saw my TED talk was just like, wow, that was so vanilla. Even like one of my uncle's who was like, so scared of like, he shouldn't be going public with this, like, he is going to get harassed so much. And then he watched my TED Talk. And he was like, yeah, no one's going to complain about that at all. So I've always, like I've tread the road to, I think, to protect myself, because I yeah, that's, I probably should, I should probably be a little louder about things sometimes. But for me, it's I don't know, it's self preservation and the type of advocacy that I prefer to do. But..

Alex Iantaffi:

Self preservation is important. There's nothing wrong with that.

Jackson Bird:

Yeah. I find it very important. Oh, yeah. And then what I was gonna say was, even despite that, I do still get, you know, a lot of negative reactions from from both sides of it, you know, from complete transphobic bigots, to you know, as I was just sort of hinting at, like, like activists who are like, you're not doing enough, you're saying this wrong, you're doing this wrong. And so that can be really tough. But even as you were kind of talking about a little bit there to have people who like you, and who love everything that you do, thinking that they know you better than they do. And, yeah, I think it's, I think we all feel that way, sometimes with, you know, like actors or creators, whoever that we're sort of seeing online, we love this version of them that we see, we can be easy to forget that there's a whole person there. And there's that there's a real person behind it. I'll never forget one of my friends, who's a YouTube creator, and has been like, from the very, very early days, she's OG YouTube creator. And she, I don't know, she made a video about something. And there was some comments, that was kind of mean. And she replied honestly to it and said something along the lines of like, you know, that this was really hurtful. And I think like, she even cried about it. And she's sort of like replied, and then the person who left the comment said, Oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry, I kind of forgot you are a real person. And so sometimes I just have to remind myself that up to when I see comments that are too critical, or coming from like, kind of a weird place and make you feel a little bit a little bit weird, is remembering like, I don't know where that person was when they left that comment, what kind of, you know, mental space that they were in? I don't know who they are, I don't know anything about their background. Like I, there's just so much that you don't know about them in the same way that they don't know about you and sometimes that can help me deal with worse comments that I get.

Alex Iantaffi:

Absolutely. That's some really great advice. And you said that partially you had kind of, you didn't say the word mentorship, but the word mentorship came to mind when you were talking about starting to create content. And I wonder kind of what tips or advice would you give to people who are maybe starting to put themselves out there with their own lives to do that piece of self care to kind of protect themselves? Or, you know, if they're worried that people will come at them if the share more about who they are?

Jackson Bird:

Yeah, I think the biggest thing that I would say because I think all of us can are continually maybe getting a little worse at this as we all get more comfortable with social media is really thinking about anything that you're sharing before you post something publicly really thinking about it. And remembering like even if it's Snapchat, even if you think I'm going to like delete this tweet later, like web archives exist, you don't know who's going to see it before you delete it, you don't know who's going to screenshot something and text it to someone else. So really, really think about the consequences and the consequences you should be thinking about is yes, that permanence is this something that like someone could dig up 10 years from now, when I'm applying for a job, and it'll come back to haunt me. Is this something that's revealing personal information about myself that I might not be comfortable with in the future? Is it revealing personal information about someone else? Is this a picture of someone? And did you have their consent to post it, whether it's a family member or a stranger. I see people posting like strangers, kids all the time, like Wednesday, you know, that's a very common thing that's so weird to me, I'm like you, that's, that's not okay. And I've probably done it before, too, because you're just like out in public, and you take a picture at the park, and, you know, whatever. I think there's just so many things to consider like that. And I think you know, if you are thinking that you want to start out and whether it's starting a YouTube channel, or you're trying to grow an Instagram account or something, set some boundaries for yourself, really just sit down and think about what your boundaries are going to be and then stick to them. So for me, I always knew I didn't want to talk about like my dating life. I don't include my family and stuff too often, which is mostly because they don't want to be like, sometimes I'll be vlogging. And just sort of doing like day in the life stuff. And my mom and brother have been very clear, they don't really want to be on camera. And so I respect that. And I don't like talking about anything below the belt. So that's like bottom surgery discussions where I get, you know, sex toy companies always knocking on the door to do brand deals. And I'm like, I'm sorry, I just can't do that. It's just not something I'm comfortable sharing. And I don't share, like my home address or exactly where I live, things like that. So think about what some of those boundaries might be for you what things that would one keep you and your loved ones safe, but also help you feel better about mental health wise, I think some other tips for that is like, I try not to read any comments, right before bed or first thing in the morning. I mean, and I also like anytime I have some kind of post on whatever platform that's getting more attention beyond my core, I just don't read the comments at all anymore. Like it, it gets pretty bad sometimes. And so just knowing because it can be you know, you get the little notification or you want to see how people are saying and you know, there's going to be some good comments in there. So it can be really hard to discipline yourself not to just click on it and read something, but really having to stop yourself from doing it. I also don't really reply ever, to any type of like hate comments. And sometimes it can be really tempting, because you can think of a really clever response. Or it's just like, it's the hypocritical things that transphobes will say if like, you need to talk to a doctor. And it's like, I've talked to so many doctors, do you not understand how like trans medical transition works.

Alex Iantaffi:

They don't.

Jackson Bird:

I know that, oh, I just want to tell you because like maybe it'll also be teaching opportunity. But I know from my own experience, and this is not true for everyone but what has happened for me is if I don't reply, they go away. And so I've had very few, like long term harassers or anything like that, because I just don't give them any bait. And for me that that helps for my mental health, because it's also like, if I were to reply, then they're gonna reply and then it and then it's like, I'm spending hours thinking about this thing actively instead of just putting it to rest.

Alex Iantaffi:

Absolutely and I think that's really good advice. And honestly, most of the time, what I found out is that, actually, those folks are not in good faith very, very rarely. And I've been able to distinguish a little bit more. Now, some people really do need information. And then a quick reply is usually enough. And they're like, Oh, thank you so much. But 90% of the time, they're kind of baiting, they're trying, you know, I remember having a three day exchange on Twitter with somebody who I thought was in good faith, and then in the end going, I actually think you're no longer in good faith, and you're still mad. You're just like all the other trans people. I was like, yes, setting a boundary against transphobia. If that's what you mean, I am like all the other trans people you've interacted with but you have really been kind of leading me on this path, making me believe you're in good faith. And you're obviously not and, and so yeah, after that, I've been much more cautious, even with my tiny following compared to yours but it's so important not to bait the the not to feed the trolls.

Jackson Bird:

Yes. Yes, exactly. But I mean, I would say that, you know, pretty much everything I said, I think is applicable to anyone unless all of your accounts are completely private. And you know, it's I really want especially like younger people to, to be thinking about what they're posting if their accounts are public. But if you are hoping to kind of like grow it and you're like intentionally wanting to grow a quote unquote, brand, or whatever. I would also just say, think about why you're wanting to do that, like, do you genuinely want to be sharing information and making the world a better place? Or like whatever? Or do you just think it'd be really cool to have 1000s of Twitter followers or something? And so yeah, thinking about what your objective is because it's, it's easy to well, there's, there's very little you have to do, you have to have a very, very, very small following to start getting the negative impacts of the internet and you also you never know like I've had a lot of friends who have like very small followings, but they made one video that got shared on like an INCEL forum or something and then suddenly, they're just they get more harassment than people with 100,000 YouTube followers. So think seriously about it.

Alex Iantaffi:

Absolutely. And I love what you said about, I don't know, if you think of yourself like of your brand as a brand, I don't even that's like influenza. I don't fully understand that, although the person who's redoing my website is trying to make me think about my brand, whatever that means. But I do like what you described in terms of containment and boundaries, right? This is what I'm prepared to do. This is not what I'm prepared to do. This is like how I respect people in my family and my social circle, these are my limits. These are my boundaries. And it's so important to have those in place before you do any work. So I think that's great that you're doing that. And, yeah, it was like with my therapist got on.

Jackson Bird:

I'm glad that that I am actually on the right track for good mental health.

Alex Iantaffi:

I think so.

Jackson Bird:

I like that confirmation.

Alex Iantaffi:

There you go. When? You know, I do want to go to our last question. I feel like I could talk with you for a very long time, which is really great. Another question of course, it's totally escaping. So I am gonna go into that. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you really wanted to talk about?

Jackson Bird:

Hmm, I do feel like we've touched on a lot. Ah, no, I don't know nothing that's coming to mind. i This has been the I agree. This has been a really wonderful discussion. I really enjoyed it.

Alex Iantaffi:

Oh, thank you. Me too. And like, I know, we will say, well, we've gone to places that I didn't think we would go to. I've really enjoyed it anyway. Oh, yes. See, I remember the question I was gonna ask you, you're obviously very invested in lifting up trans creator and transmedia? You know, I was really surprised when somebody reached out to me to say, do you want to interview Jackson Berd? And I was like, Sure, how did you find me with my, like, 500 listeners. I love each and every one of them. But you know, I don't have like tens of thousands of listeners. So that to me, says that you have been kind of thinking about making sure that you are talking to trans creators and podcasts or podcasters, and journalists, and not just cis folks. And I was wondering if that was intentional? And what yes, why, why you're doing that and why is that important to you?

Jackson Bird:

Mostly, because it's more fun to talk to fellow trans people.

Alex Iantaffi:

That's true.

Jackson Bird:

That's literally why I started the podcast I do, which is just me interviewing other trans or non binary, gender non conforming people, because I was so sick of hearing cis people interview trans people, and just the same questions over and over again. But no, I mean, I think, you know, it goes back to sort of what I was saying at the beginning of I know that my narrative is not, it's not the most unique, it's maybe not the most helpful, it's not necessarily the voice that needs to be heard the most and so I want to make sure that I'm always bringing other trans people into the conversation and lifting up as many voices as I can, you know, I was very lucky to have a little bit of a platform when I first came out, and to have have grown that now. And I felt a responsibility when I was first coming out to be public about my own story. Because, I mean, in part because I knew that I had to be public, because I had a little bit of a public profile. So it made me feel better about it to be like, okay, being public will be helpful to people, I can be the role model I always needed. But I also always think about I how I can use that platform to lift up other trans people as well. And it because, yes, we're kind of everywhere now and like lots of trans people are sharing their stories, but there is still a certain element of having to seek it out. It always surprises me how many, even like trans people themselves I can talk to who haven't heard of this awesome creator, or this wonderful book or this cool band? And I'm like, well, I thought, I thought we all knew that by now. I thought it would just like popped up in your algorithm. And so there's so much out there that people don't see. And so like helping people find them. That's why you know, my book has so many resources in it. For my TED talk, if you actually watch it on ted.com, they let you add in like lots of like further reading and further learning and stuff. And when I sent them, all the stuff I wanted to include in mine, they were like, no one has ever sent us this much. Like I think I broke the record for a TED talk with the most resources attached to it, because I was just like, but it's important. I want everyone to be able to like share in this this, these wonderful stories and good information. So yeah, it is slightly intentional, but also like, I just, you know, I like talking to fellow trans people.

Alex Iantaffi:

Well, that makes sense, right? Usually the conversations are definitely more interesting than that's one of the things that come up with Molly as well in their interview, you know, about kind of being a journalist and being interviewed by cis journalists who somehow just have a lot more trouble. Let's say, we talk into us and this should maybe in this day and age, well, I really love this conversation. I wonder if there's a call to action or something that you want to share with the gender stories listeners to kind of end the conversation a little bit.

Jackson Bird:

Yeah, well, so I would say for anyone who is cisgender um, I would just urge you to, as I said before, listen and learn to from other trans people and really take on board what you're learning. But then to go out there, and even when we're not there, be fighting for us, you know. Correct people who are saying misconceptions, correct people who are misgendering, your friend, even when you're when your friend isn't there, like doing some of that work to take some of the heat off of us, because we constantly have to do that. That's my my big call to action for any cis people out there. But for everyone, cis and trans, and however you identify, there's a lot going on at the Supreme Court here in the US right now. And I need to take my advice on this call to action and learn a little bit more about it. But it can have some huge consequences, especially on trans people but on really anyone. And so we need to all be paying attention to that and seeing how we can help out and help fight for that.

Alex Iantaffi:

I think those are really great calls to action and if people want to buy your book or find you on Youtube, how can they find you? Both in the bookstore and on the internet?

Jackson Bird:

Yeah, so in my social media on Twitter, Instagram, YouTube is Jack is not a bird. You can just search Jackson Bird on Google, most of the results are me, but the card that shows up will be the famous Australian cricket player from Wikipedia that shows up but then like, all the pictures are me, and all the websites are me. I feel so bad for him, I have ruined his online presence. But yeah, my book is called Sorted Growing Up Coming Out and Finding My Place. And it's on all of the book websites. And if you want to buy it from your local independent bookstore, you can go to indiebound.com, and search it on there or just call up your bookstore and request it. That's always really helpful when local bookstores get requests for certain books that shows them that people are really interested. And then they might even invite me to go speak at your bookstore. And of course, you can also request it from your library. Librarians are always really happy to also get requests. So talk to your librarian and then lots of people will get to read that book.

Alex Iantaffi:

I was gonna say don't forget libraries, libraries are such a way.

Jackson Bird:

Never forget the libraries. Also love librarians. I've done a lot of work with the American Library Association, I just like to nerd out on librarians.

Alex Iantaffi:

Right librarians are the best. I feel like we could do another episode on like librarians and we didn't even get to talk about Harry Potter, this topic that we could have talked about that we didn't talk about. But thank you so much for spending this time with the gender source listeners, I really appreciate you and gender source listeners, get the book. It's really good. It's a great resource. I think you would enjoy it. You might want to give it to other people. If you're trans and non binary, maybe other people who are having a hard time understanding your identity. You don't have to do the work. Let us who are writing books, do the work for you and just give it give your family or educators a copy of the book and thank you so much Jackson and this was really great. I really enjoyed our time together.

Jackson Bird:

Thank you so much for having me. I had a great time as well.