Supporting Trans Community with Aydian Dowling

Aydian Dowling is the co-founder and CEO at TRACE. With the support of just 1 person, a trans or nonbinary youth’s risk of suicide goes down by 40%. This is why Aydian co-founded TRACE, the app created to foster a brighter and more gender-affirming future for transgender and non-binary individuals. He has been a transgender activist and influencer for more than 12 years and has been featured on the Ellen Degeneres Show as well as on the cover of Men’s Health. As the founder of Point of Pride, a global nonprofit that has generated over $2.5M in aid for the trans community, he is committed to equity and access to medical and wellness care for the most vulnerable members of the transgender and nonbinary community. 

Point of Pride: https://www.pointofpride.org/ 

TRACE: https://www.thetrace.app/ 

Follow Aydian on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/alionsfear 

Transcript

Alex Iantaffi: 0:34

Hello and welcome to another episode of gender stories I know I always say I'm excited is because I genuinely am excited every time and today I am very honored and excited to be introducing Aydian Dowling. Aydian is the co founder and CEO of TRACE. He has been a transgender activist and influencer for more than 12 years and has been featured on The Ellen DeGeneres Show, as well as on the cover of Men's Health. As the founder of point of pride, a global nonprofit that has generated over two and a half million in aid for the trans community. Aydian is committed to equity and access to medical and wellness care for the most vulnerable members of the transgender and non binary community. Welcome, Aydian. Thank you so much for making time for gender stories.

Aydian Dowling: 1:17

Yeah. Thanks for having me, Alex. I appreciate it.

Alex Iantaffi: 1:23

Oh, it's so exciting. You know, I do remember, like you being on Ellen's show, and on the cover of Men's Health, because I am old actually, even remember, I was still living in the UK when we all gather in the pub to see, you know, Ellen's coming out on this episode when she was still doing a sitcom, you know? And so, you know, you have been really kind of out of the milestones, I would say, of trans history you have once, let's start from there. What's that like to have this level of visibility as a trans person for you?

Aydian Dowling: 1:56

Yeah. I also remember Ellen's coming out on like, the TV show she had, right, like Ellen or Yeah, I think so. Something in a while. Yeah, it's like a camp episode or something where she's camping? I don't know. But I have I have not super vivid, but just like some faint memories of when that happened, because it was such like a big deal, the huge deal. And so, you know, what is it like? I mean, it's, it's, it's a whirlwind, really, things happen quick. And it's been a pleasure and an honor. And, you know, lots of responsibility as well. Lots of eye opening moments, also of just, you know, you know, of learning and relearning and privilege and, you know, recognizing, you know, what do you do when you have access? And how do you? How do you manage that access? You know, and so, it's been awesome. Like, there's no, there's always complaints? I mean, who doesn't? Who doesn't complain in some capacity? But I would say overall, like, there's, you know, I'm very grateful for the opportunities that I have, you know, I've had in my life and, you know, continue to try my best to give opportunities to other people. Whether that's successful. I mean, I'm not counting, but it's, it's an attempt, that's

Alex Iantaffi: 3:30

I mean, what else can we do? Right, we do our best

Aydian Dowling: 3:30

Yeah, thanks. So Point of Pride was accidental. for sure. and hopefully, our intentions land well, and often that is all we can do. And, and I mean, you have done a lot for trans

Alex Iantaffi: 3:38

Oh, yeah, I know that feeling. I've done a lot. community and you do a lot I know you're really active with like fundraising, you know, there's kind of a Point of Pride. And also there is kind of TRACE that definitely want to talk about, but let's talk about the fundraising for a bit. Since we're talking about that for a moment. Tell me a little bit about why you started Point of Pride. Kind of, I don't know, if kind of leveraging that visibility was part of that, or, yeah, tell me a little bit more about your intention with Point of Pride and what you're hoping for, and what you would like listeners to know about? I've started to practice accidentally, so yeah, good.

Aydian Dowling: 4:25

So point of pride was started. So I came out to myself in very early 2009. I chose not to medically transition, but I then decided to medically transition. So within that year was a lot going on. And so I started HRT in late 2009. And then, in two or so years from then I really wanted top surgery. And so I began, I tried many things, I started like working extra hours at my job. I started like asking people, like, can I mow your lawn? Like, you know, like, when you were 17 For context, I came came out when I was 21. So, as in my early 20s, I started you know, selling cupcakes and like bake sale type stuff. I you know, I was a cake decorator at the time I was like, How can I make extra cash and I decided to make a t shirt with a it was like a Superman symbol with the T in the middle. And at that time And, of course, I did not invent the screen printed t shirt. No claims to that. But at that time, people didn't really make T shirts. It wasn't really a thing. Oh, that's real. Yeah. Yeah, that people did. There were some shirts out there. So like, a one very popular shirt at the time was gay is okay. That was, as you recall,

Alex Iantaffi: 5:54

I've got one of them.

Aydian Dowling: 5:56

Like, circa 2007. Right? Yeah. So, um, what I saw in the world was like, a lot of pride coming up, you know, this was right, you know, this was early 2000s. So, you know, we had a large gay movement happened in the, you know, leading up to the 90s. And we had the HIV and AIDS crisis, which is still a crisis, but, you know, it really started becoming shone into the light into the 90s, which is the time I grew up, and I was born in 87. And, and so, in the early 2000s, we were fighting for gay marriage, and there was a lot of pride in being gay. And I also identified as a lesbian, I had a lot of pride in my lesbianness, you might say that you could tell I was a lesbian. I mean, you know, some people might say that. And, and so I, I didn't see any pride in being transgender, like, the pride I saw on the trans community was not there, it was more of like shaming it was like, you want to transition and then fade out into the, you know, blend in with society, and no one needs, you have to destroy every photo you've ever had, and only can know your name, like all of these things, which was mostly about safety, I will definitely say, but but I was like, you know, I'm gonna make this t shirt, it's good. I'm gonna sell it on the internet. See if I can make some money. So I bought the screen printing kit on sale for like, $200 flat, I went to Walmart would buy a $3 T shirt, I'd sell it for $20, I'd ship it for like four bucks, or whatever. And I would keep whatever the change was. And so I did this over and over and over, until I raised the money for my top surgery, which at the time was half of what it is now it was $5,900. And on average, a top surgery is around the$12,000 mark. So it has doubled absolutely 10 years. And so I was so like, lucky that I had started building a platform and sharing my story on YouTube. And that's when people would buy the t shirt. And it was just so beautiful to like, see, you know, all this support from people I didn't know, I didn't know these people, but they were buying my shirts and supporting me. And so when I raised the money, and I got my top surgery, people were like, Oh, are you gonna stop selling the shirts because I wanted one. And I was like, sure, like, I'll, I'll sell the shirts. Great. So I continue to sell the shirts, but I always knew that I wanted to give a portion of the money that I made back to somebody else, because that's how it started. Right? It wasn't, it wasn't made to build a profit. It was made to help with my, you know, my personal, you know, gender transition. And so, so like the first year, I mean, I didn't make crazy money off of this business, either. The first year I gave away like 800 bucks. The second year was like 1000, or 1200, which was just like, felt awesome. And by the third year, I had started collecting old binders that people stopped using, because they got their top surgery. Yeah. And I started shipping them with a shirt for free. So it was like, and at the time, luckily, binder prices have gone down. But at the time of binder was like $60

Alex Iantaffi: 9:27

Oh, yeah. I had like to. Yeah, and they were

Aydian Dowling: 9:30

like crappy. They're like, terrible. It was miserable. It

Alex Iantaffi: 9:36

was yeah, it was so bad.

Aydian Dowling: 9:38

And I'm so happy that people don't have to go through that. Like, please save it don't. It's not a story of like we had we had it worse. So it was harder for us. It's more like I'm so glad you have what you need. And so yeah, so I just what I saw at the time were people would burn their binders. That was like a tradition which I could get behind like, lighted in flames, you know. But what I also saw in having built this committee and meeting all these people, were all these people who couldn't afford a binder. And so you know, they're wearing like two extra extra extra large sweatshirts to just hide their bodies. And so I put a call out to say like, Listen, you get your top surgery. That's beautiful. You should mail me your binder, I will give it away for free. The only cost is that the person who gets the binder has to buy a t shirt, but then a portion of those funds from the t shirt go to Someone else's surgery. Yeah. So it's it was like a reciprocal relationship. You know, maybe you can't afford a $60 binder. But maybe you can afford a 17 or $20 t shirt. Yeah. And my buddy Jeff, who's the co founder alongside me a Point of Pride, he was helping me at the time, I had met him, you know, through the grapevine, who's helping me build the website, just kind of, you know, wanting to be connected to the community in some way. And we missed an opportunity because a company wanted to give us$5,000. And we were like, Wow,$5,000 Okay. But we weren't a nonprofit. And so Jeff, and I were just like, you know, we never made money anyway, this was, if this was a for profit, we're really bad at it. We fail entrepreneurship as a for profit. But as a nonprofit, that's actually pretty good. Like we've got, you're doing great. Yeah, like, we've got a sustainable way to make funds, we've got pretty much two programs that weren't programmed. So we've got a binder program and a surgery fund program. And, like, let's just do this. So we took an, you know, we dived in, and, you know, together, we turned in from a for profit to a nonprofit. And, you know, that's, that's the history and, and where, where we started, which was just like, me, as a trans person, Jeff is a trans person, just understanding what it is having, you know, the ability to have a reach, right. And Jeff, like, went to college and was really good at building websites. So he had his own, you know, skills to offer. And, and we just started doing the thing, you know, and over time, our each year, as the board grew, we like, got a little more like, oh, well, maybe we could, maybe we could start this program. And maybe we can do this thing. And oh, well, you know, we're getting funding from here, maybe we should, maybe we should see how else we can do this. And so really continuing on from there to build out what we have now, which is a I'm definitely still grassroots. We've only got two paid employees. But I hate but I'm really proud.

Alex Iantaffi: 12:57

And that's pretty good for a nonprofit, having been a nonprofit world.

Aydian Dowling: 13:01

Right, right. And like two trans folks, so. So yeah, so just, that's, that's the how we birthed it. Just out of the, our own need, you know, which is where I think everyone on the board is trans or non binary identifying. And I think that that just gives you an insight like, yes, our stories are not the same. Yes, we are all unique individuals, we have our own other intersectionalities, and layers of classism, and race and, you know, privilege that are layered on top of it. But there's that one thread through all of us that we can understand each other on, you know, and so it's, it's been really awesome. It's been very organic and super, super cool to see happen over the last, you know, like 10, 10 years or so now.

Alex Iantaffi: 13:57

That's beautiful. And yeah, I hear you because I think having been on nonprofit boards for a long time, on and off. Being on a board that's all trans and non binary people is very different than being like, either they only or maybe one of a couple of trans people on a larger LGBTQ board, for example. And we know that kind of funds are already so skewed for LGBTQ disparate plus populations. And then when you kind of go into like trans folks, it gets even smaller, that slice of the pie. So I think that, you know, nonprofits like Point of Pride do really useful work in the world, because I don't think people understand that it's actually really hard to access funds still, for a lot. For a lot of people, I was really lucky that my you know, top surgery was covered by my insurance at my work, but even now, if I was still in the same job, their benefits have actually changed. So I would have to pay 20% whereas at the time, I literally didn't pay anything for my medical intervention, which is incredible, right? That really motivated me to want to go give back.

Aydian Dowling: 15:06

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of you know, a statistic that, that I've learned in the last two years is that for every $100 given to LGBT foundations or nonprofits, only four cents go to trans led nonprofits.

Alex Iantaffi: 15:26

Right? It's so inequitable.

Aydian Dowling: 15:31

Imagine if like you if if You got four cents, and I got $99.96. Yeah. And I was like, we're equal. We're good. Right? You right?

Alex Iantaffi: 15:46

But I'm proud.

Aydian Dowling: 15:48

When I learned that stat, I was just like, taken aback, you know, and it's cool to see a lot of LGBTQ nonprofits kind of stepping up in the T you know, aspect, but it's, you know, it's still not. It's just, it's, as we were saying, it can be different when you have the experience or parallel experience to the people you're serving.

Alex Iantaffi: 16:14

Absolutely, I think you are, like you said, even with all the differences, there's a different kind of understanding, you know, and having been to a lot of bake sales and art sales, and, you know, drag shows and fundraisers, you know, so many fundraisers right in the 2000s. Before, you know, now we have GoFundMe, and people do a lot of online fundraising. But it was very much like, you know, yard sales and garage sales and baking things and showing up for each other, you know, and we weren't talking about mutual aid at the time, by the way, that's what we were doing as trans folks I know, I always like attended and gave because I felt this immense privilege of having had a job that covered kind of my top surgery back in like 2010. And then being able to kind of show up and give back because so many people did not gender inclusive and still don't have gender inclusive benefits, or the out of pocket deductibles or, you know, just too high. It's just still such a need, like you said, and yeah, four cents out of 100. Right? Let's just really say it again. Now, we inequitable that is, right. It's incredibly inequitable. So talking about that lack of equity, I think, you know, you, you have kept kind of showing up and doing things for the community. It sounds to me like you're pretty committed to kind of support them the community in some way. And your most recent kind of initiative to support the community is TRACE. So if you feel happy to kind of talk about trace a little bit, as well. And so for those folks who are listening and don't know what traces which was an app, can you tell a bit more about how this idea was born? And why you decided to kind of pivot in that direction, rather than just like stay with keep growing Point of Pride, for example? And just Yeah,

Aydian Dowling: 18:12

yeah, yeah. So. So TRACE is an acronym, because why not? Right, we love acronyms. We do love a good acronym. a good acronym. So it stands for transition recording and community engagement. And so that's where the name came from. It was first thought of back in July of 2019, was our first meeting, we have three co founders, but initially, it was just myself, and another co founder, Elizabeth. And she is a cis ally. And her and I were friends, you know, building a friendship. And she has a really great UX UI background. And she's very committed to being an ally, and was like, I can do something but but you know, what can I do? Like I have this skill, she's, you know, very accomplished in that field, and respected and she's like, How can I give back? Like, there's got to be something, you know, she was active, but something more more passionate that she wanted to get behind? And I was like, Well, you know, I had that clothing company I was talking about, I had thought about doing reminders for your shot day, like so coming from like a transmasculine perspective, right? I was like, what if I built a reminder This was back in the day, I was like, what if I built a reminder for your shot day, and it just reminded you to do your shot, but you could also buy T shirts from the app. Like, that's really bad. I met with an app designer and everything and he's like, this will cost about 100,000. And I was like, I like barely have 1000. So that's not happening. But it was nice, like, storyboarding and dreaming. And she, you know, also had similar thoughts of like, you know, is there something I can do, where there's something where you can, you can have a history of what your transition was, you know, who you who you are, and who you're becoming, and be able to look back, so to speak at at that process of transitioning. And so we started building, really just building out a framework of what it would look like flowcharts all of these things, you know, businessy and you know, figuring out you know, where we What would you do? And then about a year and a half ago, we brought on Taylor, as a third co founder. And we, he started building the app. So Taylor is a full stack software engineer. So he started building the app. And Taylor and I quit both of all of our jobs, all of the things we were doing, and went at it full time. And, you know, we spent a year doing it full time, I have had to take a day job, which is I'm fine with because you know, that's how the world works. And at the end, so that's like the story of TRACE, which is not the question you actually asked me, Alex you asked, what is it?

Alex Iantaffi: 21:20

That's all good. But sometimes it's good to have the story. So that's the story. And it is an app that records transition. It's an acronym for you. And God, let's see, no, I cannot remember what it stands for transition it not transition record,

Aydian Dowling: 21:36

close. Transition, recording, transition recording and community engagement. And so that's, I see why

Alex Iantaffi: 21:43

you went with that. Yeah.

Aydian Dowling: 21:46

And so that's what the we're trying to think of a name, right? And we were like, oh, there's so many as what do we want to name it. And so the app is two sides. So there's the you in the app side, and then there's the you in the community side. And so the you in the app side is you are documenting your transition and whatever that looks like. And so we've made it very fluid in the ability to, you know, fill in what you need, and then have the app do what you needed to do rather than us. You know, we're not here to tell you what transitioning looks like, right? So we're just going to give you all the options and use siphoned down to what you need. And so the main features we have is we have a photo tracking, where you're able to document and store photos. So you know, for me again, I'm just always come from my experience. So for me, like when I was documenting, I was wanted, my beard wanted to record my beard growth, my facial structure, my voice changing, you know, just my just in general, what I looked like, as a whole you know what I mean, my fat redistribution, all of those things, even after top surgery, it was like the before and after in the recovery. And what do I look like a week, two weeks, six weeks, six months. But the dilemma with trying to remember to take photos,

Alex Iantaffi: 23:10

yeah, absolutely.

Aydian Dowling: 23:12

You're very gung ho about it the first week, and then you're like, Oh, I missed a week, I missed two weeks. And then you're like, forget it. What's the point? And so TRACE has a reminder feature built in. So that if you, yeah, so if you want to track like your beard growth or your face structure, you would set up a reminder for that album, we would remind you and be like, hey, today's the day, take your beard photo, right. And this could be for all things. And this is private, this side of the app, you and the app is all private, you know, people want to record all different types of things that happened with their body, and they get to do so in the privacy of them selves, right. But then the other aspect is, I did do a lot of tracking. But I couldn't tell you which phone, those photos are on. I didn't always have an iPhone, I didn't always pay for Apple cloud. So there, there's probably like, SIM cards somewhere in a dumpster, you know that I have like my transition photos on them. Right? That I've just lost them. Right. And so being able to have all of those things in one spot, categorized, clear, understandable and accessible to you, I think is really awesome. Because I think what happens is, so often we feel like we're not getting anywhere. But if you can look back and see how far you've come. It really is motivational and reminds you that like hey, regardless of how long this might be taking, or how long it feels like I am progressing, and that, you know, that's when you have, you know, it's like capturing those little moments that really matter those like gender euphoric moments of like this picture, I just love this picture. This is going into the gender euphoria, like album, you know, and being able to look back at that photo. It's, it's why when we look at photos of ourselves when we were in high school, you know, whatever that moment is, you're just like, oh, like you're looking at your photo. You're like, Oh, I love this photo makes me so happy. Right? Like the thing with being trans and I'm sure you recognize this is like those moments for us are really fleeting. Yes. They don't last long. You get it. You feel great in the morning and by the afternoon. You are like everything sucks.

Alex Iantaffi: 25:30

Why did I even do this? I definitely have my moments of like, yeah, Have

Aydian Dowling: 25:34

them exactly. And so being able to have those moments in one spot where you can go back and relive those moments to remind yourself that being trans can be beautiful, right? It can be harder and shitty. And we have a lot of apps that already remind you of how hard it is exactly.

Alex Iantaffi: 25:57

Like the world every day, social media reminds us Yeah, every day,

Aydian Dowling: 26:02

if a gentle nudge of how crappy it might be. And with TRACE, we're just trying to have a counterbalance of like, also like, and it's really awesome. And like, look how far you've come and you're doing it like you are becoming the person you know, you are. And again, maybe that's tracking your beard growth. But maybe it's not. Right, like maybe that's transitioning medically, but maybe it's not. So outside of the photos, we also have a general reminder, which can remind you to take your binder off, it can remind you to take your tucking garment off, to remind you to do your your HRT, it can remind you to do your estradol, like whatever medications

Alex Iantaffi: 26:44

dilation exercises, whatever it is that people are doing.

Aydian Dowling: 26:47

Yep. And so it can be set for as often as frequent. You can have as many reminders as you want. So that's another thing. It could be like take your vitamins, like Yeah, can be whatever you want, right? And then, and then there's another anniversaries or milestones. So if you have an anniversary, like you're gonna get top surgery or you're getting facial feminization surgery, or you came out, you're coming out day, or you know, the first, whatever anniversary you want to celebrate. We have you can track them, and we have countdowns to them, right. So like, you know, I think mine is. So my day on y first day on HRT is October 30. So I have 35 days until my HRT anniversary, so So I have it just up there. And I mean, on top of my screen to says a little countdown and, and so again, this is the part of the app that's just for you and your transition. That's all it's for, it's just for you to celebrate you. There are aspects of it that you can share with others. So like Alex, if you and I were, instead of calling them friends on TRACE we call them allies, because we're building a community of support. So if we were allies, I could pick and choose which anniversaries I might want to share with you. So, you know, if we're allies, you get a notification that like on October 30 That like, oh, today's Aydian's HRT anniversary, you should like send him a note because clearly, he wants you to know, that means it's meaningful to him, right? Yeah. And so that's the one little piece of the tracking that can turn over. But then the other side of the app is pretty much think of Instagram for transcripts.

Alex Iantaffi: 28:36

That's what it is. Which I love it because so many trans people do use. I mean, used to be Live Journal because I'm old, you know, Live Journal, Tumblr, Instagram, Tik Tok, right? What used to be Twitter, whatever it is now. Right to record their journey, because there is this YouTube, right, this desire to kind of see the changes, but also we know how much I don't know about you. But I should talk for myself. But I know how much I got out of other people be more public, right? Oh, that's what I can expect from top surgery. Oh, look at all the you know, they used to be the whichever backend website where you could go and see pictures of folks who are that top surgery and kind of have a you know, an expectation of this is what it might look like for somebody who's older with the larger chest, all of that. But it's kind of sounds like you've taken all of that and put it in an app where you can keep it private, which is really nice, because not everybody wants to have that level of visibility on social media, but you can also have a small social connection, but it seems like the main goal is to like having this record for yourself because it's such an important part of people's lives. Often, right?

Aydian Dowling: 29:54

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's really, I mean, I would say that it's whatever you want it to be, right. So maybe you don't document that much, but maybe you really want community. Right. So we have you know, we've got DMs, we've got, you know, your timeline, we've got a personal only allies feed and then a public feed. We've got channels similar to a Slack or discord where you could join a channel of yours, whatever, you know, top surgery, whatever, like, you know, Dungeons and Dragons, like it's whatever, right? So I always say it's like, yes, it's for support, but it's also like post pictures of your puppy. You know, like, it's just about trans life. That's it and The connective tissue is that, you know, there's no other app that you might be able to try out a different name or try out a different pronoun or talk to somebody or post pictures of you in the clothes you want to wear, because you don't feel safe, right. And so this is an app where you could do that. And so, and even on the app, like falling in line with the difference between what we have in social and what TRACE is trying to do is like, you can't see how many allies another person has. So there's no comparison that like Alex has 500, and I only have five, right? And you can't see how many people have commented, there's no number. Now you can read the comments and like count, if you want, you can go more laborious. Yeah, you can't, you know, there's also no light count. So as the poster, you can click the like button and see who liked it. But there's no number, so you can't see that I got 1000 likes or you know what I mean? And you only got 300, right? So there's no, there's no, in that way, we're trying to be very intentional of being like, there's no particular body that should be highlighted more than another. And that's it. Like, we're not there's no AI algorithm that's boosting top people. You know, I always say that, like, if influencers want to go on TRACE, that's amazing. But this isn't a place that you're going to like be, you know, getting brand deals and like like, that's not, that's not what this is about. This is a community of support around trans and non binary folks. And, and we do welcome allies, because I think a lot of people, like my wife is queer, but she's not trans, but she's so in the Trans world, it's like, but there's no letter in the acronym for her, there's, you know, like, when she goes and talks to other, you know, lesbian, gay couples, it is slightly different or cisgender couples, it is different, like so, you know, having her be able to be a part of it and have other find other cisgender people similar situations, right? So many people are like, I want to be a better ally. And it's like, well, trace can help you do that. Because you can spend time every day going and supporting trans folks, you can build friendships with them, you'll know when to celebrate them, because they will call you in to an anniversary, or to they'll post a picture, you know. And so I, you know, we hope that it will be a place where there's community for those who need it, and tracking for those who need it. And yeah, and so that's, you know, we've got over 10,000 users, so we're growing, and it's been, it's been really awesome, awesome to see, grow, it's still such a little infant, you know, no,

Alex Iantaffi: 33:33

but hey, 10,000 users, it's pretty good number, if you think about all the trans folks that are in there, they're really benefiting and they're benefiting from the connection that I really love how thoughtful you've been raised with, like, let's not have to account for likes, let's know. Because we know that's a big piece of social media, especially with younger people feeling like, does anybody care about me? Or maybe my journey is different because of different intersectionalities. And so I don't feel so I think that's really thoughtful. And it's I love the idea of people being able to record their journey because I know many people do that. And like you said, though, then they're like, Oh, I, I was going to record my voice every week. And I forgot to do it right, or whatever it is that people, you know, for transplants folks, or I was gonna see my healing from facial feminization surgery, or whichever language because also language has evolved so much in the last 20 years. People want to use for that. And it sounds like there's a lot of flexibility. One of the discourses I've heard online is at a time and I feel like this discourse very much started also when we started having the the X on documentation as well, you know, for non binary folks. So it's not just about trees. Right now. It's such a such a rise of fascist, anti transphobic sentiment, right, both in the North America and including the US in the UK, and lots in Italy, to where I'm from originally, cannabis feels very global at the moment, sadly. And, you know, tres could as been seen by some people as why would we have a place where people could find us, as trans folks, right, where people could find us learn about us, especially those folks who are most vulnerable, like young people could increase their risk. So yeah, what would you say to those concerns of like, Oh, do we really want to have a place where people can find all this data that could be weaponized To against us and a court of law in some states. Yeah. So I hope that makes sense. And I'm wondering, yeah, if you've thought about that, which I'm sure you have, it sounds like there's been so much thoughtfulness going into this.

Aydian Dowling: 35:45

Yeah, yeah. It's definitely something we've thought of, and something that we have addressed. And we'll continue to address as things go. And I think, you know, to answer plain and simple like, why, why do we have a place where people would come together? Right. It's why we have LGBT centers. It's why we have pride month, it's why we have parades, because we need each other. And if we don't gather, we will not become stronger. Right. But the truth is, does that put us more vulnerable? Like, yeah, I mean, if you know, a bunch of queer people are gathering, then yeah, you have, you know, you're putting yourself in a more vulnerable space than if you were to not do so. Right. And there are protections that we take on the back end. And that includes, you know, we just finished our penetration testing, which means we've had people come in and try to hack in, so to speak, and we've paid a third party to do that, we pass that. So that was amazing. Congratulations, thank you, we also use a secondary platform, meaning we are building on another on another platform in which you then go and build apps on so that puts us a second barrier. So not only do we do our penetration tests, but then that company has their own tests and security. So it's kind of like you have to break in to break in. And then also, we do our best we do not geo locate. So I actually, you know, in the backend, we don't collect, we collect as minimum data as needed, right. So we literally only collect the things that we legally would need to be able to collect for our own safety. So for me to like, you know, if there was someone on there for us to block someone, and then block there any additional addresses they try to put in, we have the ability to do so. Right. And so with that, it's like, if we got a subpoena from Florida, like I, we, we do not know who our Florida residents are nice. We do not know, do and I mean, now, people who put in the app that if they join the Florida channel, if they put their tag as Florida, right. But that's also not means to write, that doesn't necessarily mean they live there. It's also something that we're allowing the users to put in that data if they want to. first name last name not required. Yeah, you don't have to, you can use an alias like we are very, you know, we want people to know that. We are doing our best and working very diligently and hard to keep you safe. And if that still doesn't feel safe enough to you? That's okay. Yeah. Right, like, and what we will say is that a lot of the social medias that a lot of people are using right now are not keeping you safe. And they Oh, not putting trans people first. And like, some people, I'm just like, Instagram knows that you're at an ice cream parlor right now.

Alex Iantaffi: 38:48

Oh, my God, Instagram knows everything that, honestly, our phones know everything. Right? Because you talk about something, you know, and then you start seeing, I talk about attachment a lot as a therapist, and I start seeing all these videos about attachment in my Instagram.

Aydian Dowling: 39:04

So I mean, whatever, whatever theory you may have, right? We all have our own theories, like, the one thing that I can say is that we are community on TRACE, and we have many different ways to report people, you must be verified in order to enter. And we really use like a community approach, the amount of ways you can report someone, and we get notified the minute someone gets reported. And we really rely on that inner community, you know, kind of like a, like a neighborhood watch field. Yeah. Right. Like, if you see something, you report it, and we really tried to push that, like, you can't not, there's no such thing as over reporting. just report it. And we'll look into it and we'll find it we'll get to the bottom and then we take the action necessary. And I think that one of the things that, like, deters a lot of people who don't like us to join is that we made it like, this is our app first DNA mean, and so there is you go on the app, there are no other people to join in on the hatred, people like you miss gender and someone's gonna be like, That's messed up, like who are you? Like, I'm reporting you like, what are you doing? Right? And so it's like, it's not a place. You know, it's not a it's not a safe place for anti trans people. Like, you know, just just plain and simple like it is not safe for them to attend. And, yeah, and I mean, because they're, they're not who, who it's made for. And I feel like they know that they can go to x, they can go to these other platforms, and they can find the rally of people who want to hate on us and feel really supported. And you can't do that here. So, so again, you know, always open for feedback and thoughts from people, you can email me Aydian, at the trace dot app, you can DM us, always open for feedback, and also just always trying to do our best to keep our people safe. And, you know, like, this is for us. So

Alex Iantaffi: 41:14

I love that and in a way comes kind of back full circle to where we started the conversation right there in terms of how do we find spaces there, like, by as far as the mutual support the mutual aid, I think trans community has always been really good at, you know, it's like, if we want something, we often have to build it for ourselves, especially if we want it to center us because let's face it, I love a good ally. And most allies, unless they're real deep into the community, be very hard pressed to create something that centers kind of our experiences and our interest. And, and people have always looked for each other, right? Whether it was like journal, or Tumblr or Instagram, I feel like or like the community center, right? trans folks look for each other. Because even though we have different experiences, we need that mutuality, that interdependence that support that. Oh, I'm not alone. I'm not the only one was like, conflicting feelings some days, like, you know, and I'm like, Yeah, you know, even as a trans therapist, when I've trans clients are like, Oh, it's okay. You get to be anxious about medical interventions, you get to, you don't have to be the poster child of what it means to be trans. Right? Right. That's such a weight to carry, like, you can just put it down for a minute, right? And it sounds like trays or somewhere where people can also do that. Right? Because it's kind of central in the community. And that's, that's beautiful.

Aydian Dowling: 42:42

Thank you. Yeah,

Alex Iantaffi: 42:44

I feel like, I want to ask you another, like, 20 questions, but I want to be respectful of our time, because yeah, we both have day jobs, you know, yes, surviving under capitalism. So. So instead, I'm just gonna ask you the question I always ask at the end of the gender source interview, which is, is there anything that you are hoping to talk about or to say that I have not asked you about, or that we haven't talked about, like, anything that you want to make sure it gets covered?

Aydian Dowling: 43:17

Um, I mean, know, you've asked all questions about the stuff I'm doing. So I think that that's, you know, mostly all I can ask for when you know, trying to let people know about Point of Pride and TRACE. And so I'll do, I'll do a little plug. And so anybody who is looking to donate or also, if you don't have funds, but you want to give up your time, you can become a community grant fellow, which is somebody who helps us at Point of Pride, go over applications. And so you have to be trans or non binary identified, but we're always looking for CGF says we call them there's some perks to in there. So you can either donate or sign up or if you're in need of, we've got five different programs, you can go to pointofpride.org. And that's spelt poi and T point of pride.org. If you want to download the app, you can search me we can become allies. That's on iOS and Android, just search TRACE. We don't use any pride colors. It's just a purple triangle. So just for like safety, so people aren't like, what's this like trans flag or whatever. So so you can download that and search me and let's be allies. And then I think like, you know, I'll ask a question to you as my last request. So absolutely, yeah, Alex, I'm really curious. Like, as like we first started before we started recording, you're like, oh, you know, like, everyone is, like always so much younger than me, right? But it also sounds like you are like, an elder in the sense that you did begin your gender journey years ago and not like older in life, like you've just been, you know, a part of the community for all these years. What do you think is like your favorite thing that has changed from let's just go back to like, when you got your top surgery, right, you're like, Oh, my God, like, what do you think has been really awesome that you've seen change between you said it was 2010? Is that? Yeah, it

Alex Iantaffi: 45:27

was 2010? Yeah, so

Aydian Dowling: 45:28

like in the last, you know, 13 going on 14 years, like what's something that has made you feel really good like about the community?

Alex Iantaffi: 45:38

Well, what a great question. I might need a moment to think about it. But so many things, you know, and, and it's interesting because compared to some people, I did come out as trans later in life as an I was an adult, you know, and I work with kids who know what they are, which is amazing. And I think that's one of the things that's changed is actually, the level of visibility I know can feel heavy on our shoulders, sometimes you know, that, to see young people come in with such knowledge and confidence in who they are, because they have so many different role models, they have access to age appropriate information, whether it's on tick tock or on YouTube, they have access to language, they have access to support. I mean, I know they also often experience bullying or harassment online, but there is also like an increased level of support. And I think it's important to remember that even with this rise of anti trans sentiment, the scales have tipped, I feel like you would be hard pressed to find a person was never at least seen a trans person on TV nowadays. And 13 years ago, that was not the case. I mean, to see Shan joola on Dancing with the star on this necklace. I mean, I want to cry, just thinking about that, right? I'm watching Dancing with the star with my kids, and their Shangela, you know, or interview stage, Petunia worked on ours and has got a, you know, graphic novel coming out as a non binary person who does animation, just the level of queer content the young people, including children have access to, is incredible. And so for me, that's what brings me joy. It's the Yes, often I've been the only trans person in the room, I've used outdated language that we don't use anymore to talk about our identities. And sometimes when people can look at me like, like a transparent Pat, and I'm like, yeah, and hopefully, I've also learned the right moves with the time, you know, and, and I think that's my career. So I want to be obsolete. You know, my friend colleague, was, unfortunately, an ancestor now said, I want to be I want to be the kind of ancestor that people look at and goes, Oh, how did you think that was radical, right? Because we've come so far. And sometimes I feel that way, when I feel a little teeny weeny bit irritated with young people. And I go, No, this is great. This is what we fought for. Right? This is what we fought so hard for. Yes. demand more, want more want more of us as older people. Elder is such a hard word to play by people have told me that. But I think that's my answer. I don't know if fashion

Aydian Dowling: 48:16

is great is great. And I relate to that, like, so I came out in 2009. So I'm going on 14 years. And I'm just like, every now and then I'm just like, I hear a word. And I'm just like, all right. Okay, this is what we're doing now. All right, let's do this. Like and I'm like, I don't get it. Like I feel like an old man. I'm 36 not that old. But like, I'm like, I don't fully understand. But if that's what you say, all right. I will learn. I will learn what what the hell you're talking about.

Alex Iantaffi: 48:45

Like this gender expansiveness is so beautiful. Yeah, you know, and I'm like, yeah, let it grow, let it expand

Aydian Dowling: 48:55

sometimes or like go to pride and see a flag and like I don't even know with like that is but you wave that flag. You get it? You know what I mean? Like, you Thank you, Alex, for having me.

Alex Iantaffi: 49:03

have to have like a little cheat sheet. When I teach. I'm like, I'm not gonna remember all the flags. And I'm sorry, but there are a lot. We will learn we will learn. I have appreciated the conversation and yeah, your your kindness and your time. So thank you so much. I really love this conversation. Thank you for all you're doing with Point of Pride and with tres and those links are also going to be in the episode description for your listeners. And so thank you so much Aydian loved our time together, and gender stories listeners and watchers. Now if you're watching on YouTube, thank you so much for tuning in. And until next time,